R1b Modals in Ysearch

[rms2]

There used to be quite a few R1b modals - some of them bogus - in Ysearch. A number of them were useful, like the extended WAMH.

It used to be easy to check haplotypes against the R1b Project Modal, for example.

Are they all gone now?

If you all know of some useful R1b modals, could you list their Ysearch IDs here? I would appreciate it.

[Mikewww]

I tried to contact the owner of the old R1b project modal several months ago because it was out of date, but rather than responding he closed it down.

I made inquiries to several project admins and didn't get much interest so I finally just went ahead and created 96 marker Ysearch records for the data i have. Unfortunately Ysearch can't hold all 111 markers.

P312 XQJ7H
L21  K9VGV
U152 QM4ES
Z196 PEMD5
U106 N5PA5
M222 M5UKQ
L11* 2YYB6

[rms2]

Thanks, Mike!

[scorpion]

Also:-
NT4BZ  L226

[rms2]

Also:-
NT4BZ  L226

Thanks! The addition is much appreciated.

[DCW]

A few years ago I posted an extended R1b modal haplotype on Ysearch but deleted it last year when enough downstream SNPs had become available to differentiate between clusters. I don't believe there is value to higher-level modal haplotypes when most of the interesting differentiation for family and recent superfamily groups will be found among descendants of much more recent common ancestors.

I apologize if others relied on that haplotype and found value in it that I no longer did. If its lack is keenly felt, it should not be too difficult for others to recreate such a haplotype.

[Mikewww]

I just added a Ysearch record for DF27, 53ZBP.  The first four Ysearch IDs listed below were updated today so they are current.

P312   XQJ7H
L21    K9VGV
U152   QM4ES
DF27   53ZBP

Z196   PEMD5
U106   N5PA5
L11*   2YYB6
M222   M5UKQ
L513/DF1   ZN8M3

Here is the Ysearch Research Tool link for comparing haplotypes.
http://www.ysearch.org/research_start.asp?uid=XQJ7H,K9VGV,QM4ES,53ZBP

[rms2]

I just added a Ysearch record for DF27, 53ZBP.  The first four Ysearch IDs listed below were updated today so they are current.

P312   XQJ7H
L21    K9VGV
U152   QM4ES
DF27   53ZBP

Z196   PEMD5
U106   N5PA5
L11*   2YYB6
M222   M5UKQ
L513/DF1   ZN8M3

Here is the Ysearch Research Tool link for comparing haplotypes.
http://www.ysearch.org/research_start.asp?uid=XQJ7H,K9VGV,QM4ES,53ZBP

Thanks, Mike.

Those are very helpful.

[Mikewww]

I just added a Ysearch record for DF27, 53ZBP.  The first four Ysearch IDs listed below were updated today so they are current.

P312   XQJ7H
L21    K9VGV
U152   QM4ES
DF27   53ZBP

Z196   PEMD5
U106   N5PA5
L11*   2YYB6
M222   M5UKQ
L513/DF1   ZN8M3

Here is the Ysearch Research Tool link for comparing haplotypes.
http://www.ysearch.org/research_start.asp?uid=XQJ7H,K9VGV,QM4ES,53ZBP

Thanks, Mike.

Those are very helpful.

You are welcome.  I try to include links to the projects.  I look at the Ysearch IDs as fishing for new members.

[Mikewww]

I just updated the R1b-L11 (S127) large subclade modals in Ysearch.  We have quite a number of 111 STR marker haplotypes so I think these are now pretty stable with the exception of L11*, since I only have nine 111 STR haplotypes for it.

http://www.ysearch.org/research_start.asp?uid=XQJ7H,QM4ES,6JCVN,K9VGV,53ZBP,N5PA5,2YYB6

Here is the Ysearch Genetic Distance report at 95 markers with P312 being the base. Effectively, P312 is WAMH.

XQJ7H _ R1b-P312 (S116) __ - __ -
QM4ES _ R1b-U152 (S28) ___ 95 _ 1
6JCVN _ R1b-L2 (S139) ____ 95 _ 1
2YYB6 _ R1b-L11* (S127*) _ 95 _ 3
53ZBP _ R1b-DF27 _________ 95 _ 3
K9VGV _ R1b-L21 (S145) ___ 95 _ 4
N5PA5 _ R1b-U106 (S21) ___ 95 _ 4

Ysearch doesn't handle it, but here are the GD's at 111 markers.

R1b-P312 (S116) __ - ___ -
R1b-U152 (S28) ___ 111 _ 1
R1b-L2 (S139) ____ 111 _ 2
R1b-L11* (S127*) _ 111 _ 4
R1b-DF27 _________ 111 _ 5
R1b-L21 (S145) ___ 111 _ 5
R1b-U106 (S21) ___ 111 _ 5

I have that U152 has the greatest STR variance so it makes sense that it is probably the oldest and should have the the closest GD to the MRCA for P312.  U152's eldest subclade, L2, is right there as well.

You can see that even U106 and L11* are not far away from P312.   Keep in mind these are GD's at 95 and 111 markers, not 67. Also note that L11* is probably not a single large clade, but a few stragglers.

The above is just a simple reflection of:
- what the Human 1000 Genome Project calls a "striking pattern"
- what Busby et al are seeing when they say STR diversity clines across Europe for L11 are "insignificant"
- the fact that TMRCA age estimates for these clades come out in the same time range.

So, although some consider it preposterous, I consider the Most Recent Common Ancestors for the above subclades as essentially a clan, a few generations apart from each other.

Some might say this is based on biased, Isles descendant data, but a haplogroup knows not where it is from. The fact that all seven of these modals coalesce back to a single Western European R1b haplotype indicates they are a valid representation. It would be easy enough for two of these branches to converge coincidentally, but all seven?

I contend that we should not think of the L11 family as P312 and U106 but in context of all of the subclades listed. U106 is not that much different, just more like a cousin to the P312 brothers of L21, U152 and DF27.

[Mikewww]

Ysearch doesn't handle it, but here are the GD's at 111 markers.

R1b-P312 (S116) __ - ___ -
R1b-U152 (S28) ___ 111 _ 1
R1b-L2 (S139) ____ 111 _ 2
R1b-L11* (S127*) _ 111 _ 4
R1b-DF27 _________ 111 _ 5
R1b-L21 (S145) ___ 111 _ 5
R1b-U106 (S21) ___ 111 _ 5
.....
I contend that we should not think of the L11 family as P312 and U106 but in context of all of the subclades listed. U106 is not that much different, just more like a cousin to the P312 brothers of L21, U152 and DF27.

I forgot two grandsons of P312 to go with L2. DF13 is to L21 what L2 is to U152. I think Z196 is the same, but to DF27.

DF13's Ysearch is 5YF5A while Z196 is PEMD5. umm....
I see DF13's modal is a GD of 9 over 111 from P312 while Z196 is a GD of 5.

This implies that L21's great expansion through the Isles, which is really DF13's expansion, came a little bit latter. DF13 is more of g-grandson to P312 while L2 and Z196 were grandsons in different lineages underneath of P312.

M222 has a heavy weight on DF13. A couple of the differences between DF13 and L21 are at fast markers, like CDY, but still, DF13 is several generations later than L21. We can still think of DF13 as a "private" SNP as it relates to P312.

[Mark Jost]

Ysearch doesn't handle it, but here are the GD's at 111 markers.

R1b-P312 (S116) __ - ___ -
R1b-U152 (S28) ___ 111 _ 1
R1b-L2 (S139) ____ 111 _ 2
R1b-L11* (S127*) _ 111 _ 4
R1b-DF27 _________ 111 _ 5
R1b-L21 (S145) ___ 111 _ 5
R1b-U106 (S21) ___ 111 _ 5
.....
I contend that we should not think of the L11 family as P312 and U106 but in context of all of the subclades listed. U106 is not that much different, just more like a cousin to the P312 brothers of L21, U152 and DF27.

I forgot two grandsons of P312 to go with L2. DF13 is to L21 what L2 is to U152. I think Z196 is the same, but to DF27.

DF13's Ysearch is 5YF5A while Z196 is PEMD5. umm....
I see DF13's modal is a GD of 9 over 111 from P312 while Z196 is a GD of 5.

This implies that L21's great expansion through the Isles, which is really DF13's expansion, came a little bit latter. DF13 is more of g-grandson to P312 while L2 and Z196 were grandsons in different lineages underneath of P312.

M222 has a heavy weight on DF13. A couple of the differences between DF13 and L21 are at fast markers, like CDY, but still, DF13 is several generations later than L21. We can still think of DF13 as a "private" SNP as it relates to P312.

Using MarkoH's new mutation rates I have the following info that may be used to undestand what the age will be with the GD differences at 111 and 100 (non-multi-copy markers).

Markers   CumRates%   # of Transmissions per mutation at Mutation Rate   Per STR Mutation (BE)   Per mutatation at 25yrGen   Per mutatation at 30yrGen
111   0.290653   345   3.1   78   93

100xMCM   0.243231   412   4.1   103   124

Gen111T at 111 Markers Tested L21 all.
 
YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
30   N=646   L21All GB coal=   115.7   3,469.9   GB=   129.0   3,869.0


and using Ken's Gen111T sheet at first FtDNA 67 markers

DF13*xPredSubclades (n=97) has 119 generations before present (@25yrGen=2,975Ybp)

All HT's xPredicted (n=1033) has 128 generations before present (3,200Ybp).

L21All (N=2647) has 130 generation before present(3,250Ybp).


It seems that there is another unknown L21 subclade older than DF13.

MJost

[Mikewww]

I forgot two grandsons of P312 to go with L2. DF13 is to L21 what L2 is to U152. ....
umm....
I see DF13's modal is a GD of 9 over 111 from P312 while Z196 is a GD of 5.

This implies that L21's great expansion through the Isles, which is really DF13's expansion, came a little bit latter. DF13 is more of g-grandson to P312 while L2 and Z196 were grandsons in different lineages underneath of P312.

M222 has a heavy weight on DF13. A couple of the differences between DF13 and L21 are at fast markers, like CDY, but still, DF13 is several generations later than L21. We can still think of DF13 as a "private" SNP as it relates to P312.

I probably got carried away a bit on this comment. I calculated the modal for DF13 using only known DF13+ people, which by default includes all of the major subclades like Z253, Z255, DF21, L513, DF49.  However, that is biased towards those subclades because one positive for DF13+ per each reclassified all as DF13+ immediately.  On the other hand, all of the rest of L21* is having to testing for DF13, one person at a time.  So the old L21* people probably have a ton of DF13+ also, but they are underrepresented in the DF13 modal.

[rms2]

Is there a Ysearch entry to represent the Scots Modal? Or did I miss it in the lists above?

[Jdean]

Is there a Ysearch entry to represent the Scots Modal? Or did I miss it in the lists above?

This chopped down search will pick up most

http://tinyurl.com/bsy3oqw

Ones I can find are

U2BUE
5G25M
UZ2MM
2XD3U

[rms2]

Is there a Ysearch entry to represent the Scots Modal? Or did I miss it in the lists above?

This chopped down search will pick up most

http://tinyurl.com/bn9lbnr

Ones I can find are

U2BUE
5G25M
UZ2MM
2XD3U

Thanks!

[Jdean]

Is there a Ysearch entry to represent the Scots Modal? Or did I miss it in the lists above?

This chopped down search will pick up most

http://tinyurl.com/bn9lbnr

Ones I can find are

U2BUE
5G25M
UZ2MM
2XD3U

Thanks!

Whoops one of the values got chopped out of my Ysearch, I've changed the link now