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Author Topic: An SNP for the Frisian cluster inside of U106  (Read 630 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: September 22, 2011, 09:46:27 AM »

It looks like a large part of U106+ L48+ Ll47- will be Z8+.  Z8 seems to correspond to the Frisian cluster as defined by Ken Nordtvedt.

Here is comment today from a U106 project admin.
Quote from: Michael Maddi
It seems apparent that what Ken Nordtvedt calls the Frisian cluster back in 2005 corresponds to most of Z8. It's useful to take a look at Ken's postings on the DNA-Genealogy list at Rootsweb at the time for his STR signature for the cluster.

Here are some postings where you can see how he defined the Frisian cluster:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genealogy-dna/2005-10/1130080633
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genealogy-dna/2005-10/1128192231
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genealogy-dna/2005-09/1126897459

Do we think these are the true Anglo-Saxon invasion era people?

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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2011, 01:25:03 PM »

Nah. I think the Anglo-Saxons included other brands of U106, as well as plenty of I1 among their number. There may have been some P312* and U152 (and even a few L21 and other strays) among them, too.

I am working from memory here, so forgive me if I make a mistake, but it seems to me, in comparing Capelli and Busby, that I1 hits its frequency highs in the same parts of Britain that U106 does.

I think it's Capelli I am remembering, anyway.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 01:25:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2011, 02:26:28 PM »

Nah. I think the Anglo-Saxons included other brands of U106, as well as plenty of I1 among their number. There may have been some P312* and U152 (and even a few L21 and other strays) among them, too.

I am working from memory here, so forgive me if I make a mistake, but it seems to me, in comparing Capelli and Busby, that I1 hits its frequency highs in the same parts of Britain that U106 does.

I think it's Capelli I am remembering, anyway.
I didn't mean to imply the Z8 Frisian cluster was the only Anglo-Saxon group, but they were a key diagnostic marker. 

I am going somewhere with this. If we have enough Z8 guys we'll see what their TMRCA is and can compare with other groups like U198.

Is there a form of U152 that might be Anglo-Saxon era immigrants into England?
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2011, 06:48:31 PM »

Nah. I think the Anglo-Saxons included other brands of U106, as well as plenty of I1 among their number. There may have been some P312* and U152 (and even a few L21 and other strays) among them, too.

I am working from memory here, so forgive me if I make a mistake, but it seems to me, in comparing Capelli and Busby, that I1 hits its frequency highs in the same parts of Britain that U106 does.

I think it's Capelli I am remembering, anyway.
I didn't mean to imply the Z8 Frisian cluster was the only Anglo-Saxon group, but they were a key diagnostic marker. 

I am going somewhere with this. If we have enough Z8 guys we'll see what their TMRCA is and can compare with other groups like U198.

Is there a form of U152 that might be Anglo-Saxon era immigrants into England?

I don't know. I was thinking of the highest U152 frequency in Busby occurring in Kent, but that could have come with a Belgic or other Celtic people.

If Z8 represents the Frisian Cluster, then it probably is a good A-S spotter where it occurs in England. I didn't re-read Ken's old posts, but I seem to remember him saying the Frisian Cluster is common in Denmark, as well. But maybe my memory is failing me on that score.

Of course, that is a problem with sorting Anglo-Saxons from Danish Vikings. Some of them came from some of the same places. Really, they were pretty much the same people separated by a few hundred years. Of course, by the Viking Era, much of the North Sea coast had been taken out of the old pagan Germanic/Scandinavian orbit by virtue of Charlemagne's subjugation of the Saxons and the conversion of much of the western North Sea coastal population to Christianity.
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