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alan trowel hands.
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« on: September 20, 2011, 05:20:27 PM »

I think that neither the traditional Urnfield-Hallstatt-La Tene or the Atlantic Bronze Age theories can explain Celtic alone but at the same time I believe both simply must have been Celtic speaking.  I dont believe one borrowed Celtic off the other either.  Celtic must origin in a common denominator between both cultures further back in time.

Judging by distribution beaker pre-dates the separation into languages like Celtic and was probably some sort of generalised west Indo-European.  So I think that places the evolution of Celtic as taking place somewhere after the beaker phase and before the the Late Bronze Age Urnfield and Atlantkc Bronze Age complexes i.e. c. 2000-1300BC.  

I personally suspect Celtic evolved in parallel through the contacts between west IE groups of beaker descent culturally who had a period of close contact in the centuries after the beaker phase.  I am aware that NW France, Britain/Ireland and Central Europe were in close contact in the form of the Breton/Amorican, Wessex (and other isles early Bronze Age groups) and Unetice groups.  I believe the shifts to that defined Celtic took place in the interacting elites between those groups.  This period of interaction does fall into the period I suggested above.

I then believe that from those roots Celtic was expanded both by the Urnfield groups and also by the Atlantic Bronze Age which I dont think should be seen as mutually exclusive but variants who were in contact with each other.  I believe the later spread Celtic south to Iberia from NW France and the isles rather than the other way round.  There is evidence that non-Celtic Indo-Europeans with possible Italic connections extended all the way from Italy, through southern France to Atlantic Iberia and that the elites there only evolved to Celtic forms through contact with the northern Atlantic area in the Atlantic Bronze Age.  Hence the two strata linguistic pattern in identified in Atlantic Iberia - Lusitanian overlaid with Celtic.  At the same time the Urnfield culture may have extended Celtic somewhat through central Europe, Italy, central France eastern Iberia etc.  

I do not believe that the P-Q split was there in the Atlantic Bronze Age-Urnfield divide (a word that misleads in my opinion).  I think reading between the lines the P shift probably occurred in northern Italy and spread north progressively in the Hallstatt D era and further north still in the La Tene era.  

In terms of clades, I still feel that the spread of L11 clades pre-dated the emergence of Celtic and this period of pre-Celtic Indo-European can be seen in the wide beaker network.  I believe that much of the clade pattern was formed in this era before the distinct dialects developed.  For this reason I dont think we can expect neat correlations between clade and dialect.  That there is a fairly strong correspondence is in my opinion due to the same geographical and communications issues acting on the clade distribution and then somewhat later or the formation of interaction networks among elites.  Ii see the beaker phase as the last likely phase that the clade pattern formed and the period 2000-1300BC as a secondary phase of interaction among a subset of these people which formed Celtic.   
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 05:30:51 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 05:39:37 PM »

One thing I think we can assume as likely is that L21 was very strong among the Atlantic Bronze Age trade network although I think this is not a causal link and the spread of L21 was from an earlier period.  There may have been modest migration within the network but I think the fact L21 is low in Portugal where the Atlantic Bronze Age network seems strong and that Z196 derived clades are weak in Ireland shows that the network was predominantly one of elite contact rather than migration.  I think we need to see the migration and establishing of the clade pattern and the formation of formation of dialect blocks as two separate phases in the main. 
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 07:02:24 PM »

I think that makes a great deal of sense.
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 07:59:45 PM »

One thing I think we can assume as likely is that L21 was very strong among the Atlantic Bronze Age trade network although I think this is not a causal link and the spread of L21 was from an earlier period.  There may have been modest migration within the network but I think the fact L21 is low in Portugal where the Atlantic Bronze Age network seems strong and that Z196 derived clades are weak in Ireland shows that the network was predominantly one of elite contact rather than migration.  I think we need to see the migration and establishing of the clade pattern and the formation of formation of dialect blocks as two separate phases in the main.  
Is there any particular reason why you think that L21 was spread in an earlier period?
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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2011, 08:38:30 AM »

One thing I think we can assume as likely is that L21 was very strong among the Atlantic Bronze Age trade network although I think this is not a causal link and the spread of L21 was from an earlier period.  There may have been modest migration within the network but I think the fact L21 is low in Portugal where the Atlantic Bronze Age network seems strong and that Z196 derived clades are weak in Ireland shows that the network was predominantly one of elite contact rather than migration.  I think we need to see the migration and establishing of the clade pattern and the formation of formation of dialect blocks as two separate phases in the main.  
Is there any particular reason why you think that L21 was spread in an earlier period?

I missed that. That is a good question.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 01:32:42 PM »

One thing I think we can assume as likely is that L21 was very strong among the Atlantic Bronze Age trade network although I think this is not a causal link and the spread of L21 was from an earlier period.  There may have been modest migration within the network but I think the fact L21 is low in Portugal where the Atlantic Bronze Age network seems strong and that Z196 derived clades are weak in Ireland shows that the network was predominantly one of elite contact rather than migration.  I think we need to see the migration and establishing of the clade pattern and the formation of formation of dialect blocks as two separate phases in the main.  
Is there any particular reason why you think that L21 was spread in an earlier period?

mainly because the Atlantic Bronze Age zone is split somewhat into an L21 dominated northern zone in NW France, Ireland, Wales, Scotland, western England etc and a southern Zone in Portugal where L21 is low .  The zone is more divided and united by clades.  So, I believe the pattern of clades must pre-date the Atlantic Bronze Age. 
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2011, 04:32:16 PM »

Here is something that is interesting and perhaps worthy of pondering. The Celts of the British Isles were a pastoral people. They counted their wealth primarily in cattle and practiced transhumance. We also know that in Britain lactase persistence increases as one moves north and west, the same general direction in which the frequency of L21 increases.

It is also apparently true that among the British Isles Celts the most basic societal division was that between freemen on the one hand and the unfree or subject population on the other. It also appears that the freemen (members of the cenedl or kindred in Wales) were the pastoralists, while the unfree were primarily agriculturalists or were assigned agricultural duties.

This division might not be reflected in y-dna, but it does seem to indicate a rise to prominence of pastoralists over agriculturalists at some point.

So, at what point did that happen? Is that even traceable in the archaeological record? Did it involve a movement of people from the Continent or from one part of the Isles to another?
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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2011, 04:35:18 PM »

DNA testing on cattle might answer some questions. I believe some studies have been done, but don't recall the results.
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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2011, 05:03:16 PM »

One thing I think we can assume as likely is that L21 was very strong among the Atlantic Bronze Age trade network although I think this is not a causal link and the spread of L21 was from an earlier period.  There may have been modest migration within the network but I think the fact L21 is low in Portugal where the Atlantic Bronze Age network seems strong and that Z196 derived clades are weak in Ireland shows that the network was predominantly one of elite contact rather than migration.  I think we need to see the migration and establishing of the clade pattern and the formation of formation of dialect blocks as two separate phases in the main. 


Alan,

I have and continue to enjoy your deep analysis of L21's who, what, when, where why history via your detailed conversations and ideas.

You got me wondering when and what the growth rate was for L21 to present.

I came up with a simplex method to illustrate the number of 67 marker Haplotypes per each GD from the L21's modal and produce a chart showing the trend from the birth of L21 to present. The higher HT counts are could represent increases in population rate, so to speak. The Horizontal is ‘Years before present (YBPk) (k is thousands) and the other axis represents ‘Number of’

I created two data sets, one without M222 and one with. You can see a difference between the two charts. Here is the link to my Google document folder.


http://tinyurl.com/R-L21-HTs-per-GD-counts

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WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2011, 05:15:22 PM »

DNA testing on cattle might answer some questions. I believe some studies have been done, but don't recall the results.

I seem to recall those, too.

It does seem to me an important issue. The basic bifurcation of Celtic society was into a cattle-keeping free class and a plant-cultivating unfree or lower class.

Does it mean the Celts came in from somewhere else with their cattle and dominated the Neolithic farmers who were already in the British Isles? Or is this a situation that arose within the Isles themselves?
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2011, 05:26:41 PM »

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/01/migrants-introduced-farming-to-britain.html

Here is a study from Dienekes' blog from last year, that I think is relevant to this discussion.  If you can find a free pdf, there are some good maps.  Basically, there was a large rapid increase in population around 4000, but a just as dramatic population crash around 3300.  This happened first in Scotland, while southern England held out longer.  Population was low, though not as low as the mesolithic and lasted about 800 yrs.  Then around 2500 population increases back to early neolithic levels with the arrival of Beaker culture.  Here are a few questions I want to throw out as it relates to the Celtic emergence.

Were the Beakers pastoralists?

In the Atlantic Bronze age period were there any noted migrations or was there just a continuous exchange in goods and small movements of people?

Outside of age estimates, does the L21 subclade distribution or even all R1b fit better with the neolithic  or post-neolithic? 


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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2011, 06:31:07 PM »

I think the Beaker Folk were pastoralists.

Alan may know the answers to your other questions.

I do know that lactase persistence increases in Britain as one moves north and west from SE England. That is also the general direction in which L21 increases in frequency.
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2011, 11:53:27 PM »

Outside of age estimates, does the L21 subclade distribution or even all R1b fit better with the neolithic  or post-neolithic?

I've looked at this quite a bit and can't make the early Neolithic fit.

P312 and U106 have bifurcated distribution patterns so you have to look at each separately, at least generally.

I've always gone on the basis of what Barry Cunliff identifies as the two great true people moving Neolithic culutures, the LBK and the Cardial Wares.

I run into problems with P312. It has to be considered as the dominant haplogroup in Iberia. The LBK didn't reach there so we must look at the Cardial Wares. However, it went straight from Greece through the boot of Italy and over to Iberia at an early stage.  I just can't find old P312 in the Italian Peninsula.  It's mostly U152 in Italy, but that's up in Cisalpine Gaul.

Alan deals with this problem by proposing a late or middle Neolithic expansion of P312 from France/S.Germany.  There is some sense for this as P312 variance is high in France.  It's just these latter Neolithic movements don't seem to have the same reputation as people movers. I think another problem is that P312 or at least L11* had to sneak into France in time for the mid to late Neolithic.   That's where maybe the dairy herders ccme in.. perhaps out of Anatolia some L11* folks slipped up the Danube before catching fire in the late Neolithic.  

I don't know, maybe a combination one-two punch is the right alternative. 1) R-L23*, R-L11* dairy herders slipping into abandoned farm grounds that were decimated by disease, climate, over-farming or something....   then  2) other folks (Anatole K would say R1a.. someone say metalworking G) came in with some advanced social/warrior/horse concepts and practices and the dairy herders took the ideas and ran with with them hard to the west, northwest and southwest... wa la.. the Beakers and the Celts.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 06:24:08 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 05:53:48 AM »

Regarding the question of Pastoralists vs Agriculturalists, we have to remember that it is dependant on climate and social structures and that those change. For instance, in central Europe we have the Otomaní culture, that is agriculturalist, followed by the Tumuli culture, pastoralist, then the Urnfield, agriculturalist, then Hallstatt, with a first pastoralist period followed by an Agriculturalist period, then La Tene with the same sequence.
Agriculturalist are linked to a settlement of open small towns, large fortified elite residences and collective graves, while pastoralists are linked to small fortified towns and individual graves.
 The first developes a hierarchical system of a chief with his retinue living over a large peasant population, while the second is based on small warbands moving from one place to another with cattle.
These are cicles in European prehistory, so depending on the time we focus we find in the same territory agriculturalists or pastoralists societies.
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2011, 09:27:53 AM »

Outside of age estimates, does the L21 subclade distribution or even all R1b fit better with the neolithic  or post-neolithic?

I've looked at this quite a bit and can't make the early Neolithic fit.

P312 and U106 have bifurcated distribution patterns so you have to look at each separately, at least generally.

I've always gone on the basis of what Barry Cunliff identifies as the two great true people moving Neolithic culutures, the LBK and the Cardial Wares.

I run into problems with P312. It has to be considered as the dominant haplogroup in Iberia. The LBK didn't reach there so we must look at the Cardial Wares. However, it went straight from Greece through the boot of Italy and over to Iberia at an early stage.  I just can't find old P312 in the Italian Peninsula.  It's mostly U152 in Italy, but that's up in Cisalpine Gaul.

Alan deals with this problem by proposing a late or middle Neolithic expansion of P312 from France/S.Germany.  There is some sense for this as P312 variance is high in France.  It's just these latter Neolithic movements don't seem to have the same reputation as people movers. I think another problem is that P312 or at least L11* had to sneak into France in time for the mid to late Neolithic.   That's where maybe the dairy herders ccme in.. perhaps out of Anatolia some L11* folks slipped up the Danube before catching fire in the late Neolithic.  

I don't know, maybe a combination one-two punch is the right alternative. 1) R-L23*, R-L11* dairy herders slipping into abandoned farm grounds that were decimated by disease, climate, over-farming or something....   then  2) other folks (Anatole K would say R1a.. someone say metalworking G) came in with some advanced social/warrior/horse concepts and practices and the dairy herders took the ideas and ran with with them hard to the west, northwest and southwest... wa la.. the Beakers and the Celts.
I tend to agree.  I think the Isles R1b is mostly Atlantic Bronze age and later.   As for Bell Beaker in Britain, this could have included R1b's in the vanguard of their wavefront and other Hg's, of course.  I think Lactose tolerance had something to do with the Bell Beaker population increase.  Perhaps the bulk  of remained on the continent a little later and "trickled in" all the way up to the La Tene period.
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2011, 09:59:08 AM »

date=1316640401]Outside of age estimates, does the L21 subclade distribution or someone say metalworking G) came in with some advanced social/warrior/horse concepts and practices and the dairy herders took the ideas and ran with with them hard to the west, northwest and southwest... wa la.. the Beakers and the Celts.

I think the precursors to the Celts already had this technology and social system you speak of. It did not have to be imported to an R-L11* population. In fact, I believe such qualities were already uniform between steppe and pastoral peoples before the movement West into the Great Hungarian Plain, and so on.

I am leaning toward a Bronze Age arrival of R-L11*, with P312/L21 emerging somewhere around Hungary or a little west with some sort of Proto-Celtic culture.
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2011, 11:24:52 AM »

Quote from: Mikeww
... maybe a combination one-two punch is the right alternative. 1) R-L23*, R-L11* dairy herders slipping into abandoned farm grounds that were decimated by disease, climate, over-farming or something....   then  2) other folks (Anatole K would say R1a.. someone say metalworking G) came in with some advanced social/warrior/horse concepts and practices and the dairy herders took the ideas and ran with with them hard to the west, northwest and southwest... wa la.. the Beakers and the Celts.
I think the precursors to the Celts already had this technology and social system you speak of. It did not have to be imported to an R-L11* population. In fact, I believe such qualities were already uniform between steppe and pastoral peoples before the movement West into the Great Hungarian Plain, and so on.

I am leaning toward a Bronze Age arrival of R-L11*, with P312/L21 emerging somewhere around Hungary or a little west with some sort of Proto-Celtic culture.
I take it your inclination is with the alternative that R-L11 of some flavor was Yamna steppe culture based and it came all the way through Europe, perhaps in the David Anthony scenario around the Carpathians to north as pre-Germanic and around the south side of the Capathians up the Danube as pre-Italic/Celtic?

In this scenario, where would the R-L11 folks (of whatever flavor) have picked up lactose tolerance?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 02:50:05 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2011, 11:59:38 AM »

The Beakers as proto-Celts or as a carrier of proto Italo-Celtic languages is a good fit, imo.  For R1b to fit with Beaker as we think of how it originated is little less clear.  The L11+ part of R1b may fit better with the Unetice (Czech Rep. and south Germany)  through La Tene.  The Atlantic Bronze age is in the middle of this span so that would put a lot of L21 in Britain and North France.

All I can find for the Unetice culture is that it developed out of Beaker roots.  However, Beaker arrived around Budapest partly as a migration from the west according to the Dosideri studies, but that doesn't fit R1b's subclade stucture of east to west.  This suggests that R1b was already in Czech Rep. and the nearby Hungarian plain when Beaker arrived.  

My speculation is, a large part of the Unetice people were actually former Tripolye (and R1b) farmers from Ukraine and Romania who were part of the Yamnaya movement into Hungary.  The crania of both peoples are nearly the same and even later Celts for that matter.  The timing works as well. This is why we haven't found R1b in the aDna neolithic remains yet because they haven't tested eastern regions.  France, Germany, and Italy appears to be where G2a was dominant before population crashes due to farming and climate issues.  The farmers of the east were able to adapt to a pastoral economy.   I'm beginning to think Beakers were a mix of former farmers, old mesolithic survivors and some early pastoralists who brought/adopted the secondary products as a reaction to the decline of farming.  I think R1b was present in Beaker, but probably one of several Hg's.
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2011, 01:08:35 PM »

Regarding the question of Pastoralists vs Agriculturalists, we have to remember that it is dependant on climate and social structures and that those change. For instance, in central Europe we have the Otomaní culture, that is agriculturalist, followed by the Tumuli culture, pastoralist, then the Urnfield, agriculturalist, then Hallstatt, with a first pastoralist period followed by an Agriculturalist period, then La Tene with the same sequence.
Agriculturalist are linked to a settlement of open small towns, large fortified elite residences and collective graves, while pastoralists are linked to small fortified towns and individual graves.
 The first developes a hierarchical system of a chief with his retinue living over a large peasant population, while the second is based on small warbands moving from one place to another with cattle.
These are cicles in European prehistory, so depending on the time we focus we find in the same territory agriculturalists or pastoralists societies.

I think the important thing in this case is that the pastoralist/agriculturist relationship became fixed in Celtic law as passed down by oral tradition and reflected in what was written down later in Wales and Ireland.

Among the Celts of the British Isles, society was divided into a free pastoralist class and an unfree, soil-tilling, agriculturalist class.

I am wondering how things got that way. Does that represent an incursion of pastoralists who dominated an older, predecessor, agriculturalist population? Or is it a situation that arose in situ, something that is probably untraceable genetically?
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2011, 09:50:11 PM »

Quote from: Mikeww
... maybe a combination one-two punch is the right alternative. 1) R-L23*, R-L11* dairy herders slipping into abandoned farm grounds that were decimated by disease, climate, over-farming or something....   then  2) other folks (Anatole K would say R1a.. someone say metalworking G) came in with some advanced social/warrior/horse concepts and practices and the dairy herders took the ideas and ran with with them hard to the west, northwest and southwest... wa la.. the Beakers and the Celts.
I think the precursors to the Celts already had this technology and social system you speak of. It did not have to be imported to an R-L11* population. In fact, I believe such qualities were already uniform between steppe and pastoral peoples before the movement West into the Great Hungarian Plain, and so on.

I am leaning toward a Bronze Age arrival of R-L11*, with P312/L21 emerging somewhere around Hungary or a little west with some sort of Proto-Celtic culture.
I take it your inclination is with the alternative that R-L11 of some flavor was Yamna steppe culture based and it came all the way through Europe, perhaps in the David Anthony scenario around the Carpathians to north as pre-Germanic and around the south side of the Capathians up the Danube as pre-Italic/Celtic?

In this scenario, where would the R-L11 folks (of whatever flavor) have picked up lactose tolerance?

Yes. I picture R-U106 taking the northern route beyond the Carpathians and R-P312 along a southern corridor leading to Proto-Italo-Celtic. I believe that scenario is very likely, perhaps most likely, in my opinion. This does not preempt R-P312's mixing with R-U106 later on with the Germanics, but the common ancestry radiating out of the Black Sea is pretty apparent to me.

R-L11 already had lactose tolerance as they crossed into Europe via the Balkans. R1b must have had it for awhile before that, since we found the same LT mutation among Chadic R1b in Africa. When R1b/R-L11 tribes encountered R1a tribes around the Black Sea, this is where R1a men picked it up. I do not think they had LT before that. This is, of course, prior to the spread of IE West - of which R1a had little or no part in spreading.
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« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2011, 06:17:32 AM »

Near East Milk

We present an extensive ancient DNA analysis of mainly Neolithic cattle bones sampled from archaeological sites along the route of Neolithic expansion, from Turkey to North-Central Europe and Britain. We place this first reasonable population sample of Neolithic cattle mitochondrial DNA sequence diversity in context to illustrate the continuity of haplotype variation patterns from the first European domestic cattle to the present. Interestingly, the dominant Central European pattern, a starburst phylogeny around the modal sequence, T3, has a Neolithic origin, and the reduced diversity within this cluster in the ancient samples accords with their shorter history of post-domestic accumulation of mutation.

During the Neolithic ca 10000 BP, the crucial development of domestication of wild plants and animals accompanied substantial changes in human culture, and it was during this time that the foundation was laid for our way of life today. Archaeological evidence indicates that the Neolithic culture expanded out of the Near East into the Balkans, Greece and into Northern Central Europe after 6400 BP. It is known that the wild ancestor of cattle, the aurochs (Bos primigenius), ranged widely throughout Europe. However, inference from mtDNA data suggests that bovine maternal lineages (at least) have a Near Eastern rather than local origin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1617209/
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« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2011, 03:37:08 PM »


Yes. I picture R-U106 taking the northern route beyond the Carpathians and R-P312 along a southern corridor leading to Proto-Italo-Celtic. I believe that scenario is very likely, perhaps most likely, in my opinion. This does not preempt R-P312's mixing with R-U106 later on with the Germanics, but the common ancestry radiating out of the Black Sea is pretty apparent to me.

R-L11 already had lactose tolerance as they crossed into Europe via the Balkans. R1b must have had it for awhile before that, since we found the same LT mutation among Chadic R1b in Africa. When R1b/R-L11 tribes encountered R1a tribes around the Black Sea, this is where R1a men picked it up. I do not think they had LT before that. This is, of course, prior to the spread of IE West - of which R1a had little or no part in spreading.

I think it is pretty obvious that modern y-dna is not going to settle these sorts of questions. Probably by itself ancient dna won't settle them either, since, even when we can get it, we can't seem to get enough of it. The two have to be used to supplement and complement each other.

It's true the T13910 lactase persistence gene is fairly common among the Chadic R-V88 guys for some odd reason (perhaps pointing to their ultimate place of origin), apparently uniquely among Africans, just as their R-V88 is unique.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 03:38:07 PM by rms2 » Logged

A.D.
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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2011, 09:45:24 PM »

would the population crashes mentioned by MHammers have effected farmers (possibly having  less R1b and lactose persistence) more than pastoralists?
 If milk drinking increased chances of survival wouldn't  that leas to higher proportions of R1b in subsequent generations? (Darwin's natural selection).
The northern and western areas of Britain and Ireland have good soil but there rocky and uneven pastoralism would be option as  crop farming would be harder work.
I'm not talking  a sudden division but over centuries people moving by opportunity and choice (if they had any) Possibly client farmers working land for different landlords as happened  in Ireland much later.   
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rms2
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« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2011, 07:55:29 AM »

would the population crashes mentioned by MHammers have effected farmers (possibly having  less R1b and lactose persistence) more than pastoralists?
 If milk drinking increased chances of survival wouldn't  that leas to higher proportions of R1b in subsequent generations? (Darwin's natural selection).
The northern and western areas of Britain and Ireland have good soil but there rocky and uneven pastoralism would be option as  crop farming would be harder work.
I'm not talking  a sudden division but over centuries people moving by opportunity and choice (if they had any) Possibly client farmers working land for different landlords as happened  in Ireland much later.   

I was hoping Alan could shed some light on this issue, but he hasn't back to this thread the last couple of days or so.
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samIsaack
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« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2012, 09:09:14 PM »

One thing I think we can assume as likely is that L21 was very strong among the Atlantic Bronze Age trade network although I think this is not a causal link and the spread of L21 was from an earlier period.  There may have been modest migration within the network but I think the fact L21 is low in Portugal where the Atlantic Bronze Age network seems strong and that Z196 derived clades are weak in Ireland shows that the network was predominantly one of elite contact rather than migration.  I think we need to see the migration and establishing of the clade pattern and the formation of formation of dialect blocks as two separate phases in the main. 

So I descend from an Elite Pre-Celtic Beaker who settled into the Isles/Ireland and eventually wound up in Scotland?? I can live with that. That does offer up a reason for why Z196 derived clades are not numerous, but definitely present, in the Isles and Ireland. One thing I've noticed with alot of the SRY2627 in Scotland seems to be out of the Western Highlands.. Possibly reflecting migration from Ireland.
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
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