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Author Topic: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2  (Read 6575 times)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2011, 07:54:12 PM »

I suspect there is no L144+ man who is Z255+ but rather that there was a miscommunication somewhere.

It looks like I was right. Whelan, kit 83115, who is L144+, just got his Z255- result.

Tis a shame, hopefully the misreading was with Z155 and not L144 and Z254 will bring more luck.

I think the problem was that there was no call on the L144 status of one of the 1000 Genomes samples which tested Z255+.
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rms2
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« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2011, 08:15:11 PM »

Yeah, I got the impression someone over at dna-forums (which place I gladly no longer frequent) thought a Z255+ guy might be L144+, and somehow that got interpreted as a confirmed Z255+ L144+ result, which apparently it never was.

It's kind of like that old game in which someone passes information, which is then subsequently passed in succession to a  number of people in a circle. By the time the tale gets back to its originator, it has been altered almost beyond recognition.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2011, 08:43:18 PM »

Yeah, I got the impression someone over at dna-forums (which place I gladly no longer frequent) thought a Z255+ guy might be L144+, and somehow that got interpreted as a confirmed Z255+ L144+ result, which apparently it never was.

It's kind of like that old game in which someone passes information, which is then subsequently passed in succession to a  number of people in a circle. By the time the tale gets back to its originator, it has been altered almost beyond recognition.

Yeah, and these new results do not lie. They confirm what some suspected.
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saphorr
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« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2011, 11:53:06 PM »

Yeah, and these new results do not lie. They confirm what some suspected.

Well, it's at least gratifying to learn that the uncertainty was there from the beginning.

I'm still trying to piece it together but I get the impression that the reason L144 was suspected to be underneath Z255 was somehow connected to the fact that Z255 was known to be below Z254 (the two Z255+ samples in 1000 Genomes data were both Z254+, plus there was one more Z254+ which was Z255-).

The only thing I can think was that L144 was believed for some reason to be Z254+?  It still wouldn't follow from that that L144 should be below Z255, but at least the L144 wouldn't be coming out of nowhere.

Maybe it is the case that L144 is downstream of Z254 and a brother clade to Z255.  I guess we won't know until there is a Z254 test, although hopefully by then someone who knows what's going on will have pored over the data and clarified this confusing situation.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2011, 12:47:01 AM »

Yeah, and these new results do not lie. They confirm what some suspected.

Well, it's at least gratifying to learn that the uncertainty was there from the beginning.

I'm still trying to piece it together but I get the impression that the reason L144 was suspected to be underneath Z255 was somehow connected to the fact that Z255 was known to be below Z254 (the two Z255+ samples in 1000 Genomes data were both Z254+, plus there was one more Z254+ which was Z255-).

The only thing I can think was that L144 was believed for some reason to be Z254+?  It still wouldn't follow from that that L144 should be below Z255, but at least the L144 wouldn't be coming out of nowhere.

Maybe it is the case that L144 is downstream of Z254 and a brother clade to Z255.  I guess we won't know until there is a Z254 test, although hopefully by then someone who knows what's going on will have pored over the data and clarified this confusing situation.

That could certainly be the case, but I think the relationship was supposed based on the Z255+ sample being L144+. Since we know Z255 is downstream of Z254, then the assumed L144+ was Z254+ by default. That may well change now, but like you say, we will see!
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Jdean
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« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2011, 08:42:56 AM »

Yeah, I got the impression someone over at dna-forums (which place I gladly no longer frequent) thought a Z255+ guy might be L144+, and somehow that got interpreted as a confirmed Z255+ L144+ result, which apparently it never was.

I think this was a case of human error rather than miscommunication.

The person responsible for the call made a request for others involved in scouring the 1000 Genome data to review the sample to see if they could work out where he'd gone wrong.

I think this was the same person who found other L21 SNPs which have proved valid.

Of course the chap in the 1000 genome project could be L144.2
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rms2
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« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2011, 10:18:24 AM »

. . .

Of course the chap in the 1000 genome project could be L144.2

I hope not! Too much of that would be like a heavy SNP fog obscuring the view.

The same SNP appearing independently in two different and mutually exclusive L21+ lines seems unlikely, not to mention messy.
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Jdean
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« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2011, 11:27:18 AM »

. . .

Of course the chap in the 1000 genome project could be L144.2

I hope not! Too much of that would be like a heavy SNP fog obscuring the view.

The same SNP appearing independently in two different and mutually exclusive L21+ lines seems unlikely, not to mention messy.

No I don't think that's a likely scenario either I was just covering all the bases.

I would like to hear how the error was made though, but of course it makes little difference now. Either way the testing of L159 was useful.
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« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2011, 12:51:15 PM »

Yeah, I got the impression someone over at dna-forums (which place I gladly no longer frequent) thought a Z255+ guy might be L144+, and somehow that got interpreted as a confirmed Z255+ L144+ result, which apparently it never was.

I think this was a case of human error rather than miscommunication.

The person responsible for the call made a request for others involved in scouring the 1000 Genome data to review the sample to see if they could work out where he'd gone wrong.

I think this was the same person who found other L21 SNPs which have proved valid.

Of course the chap in the 1000 genome project could be L144.2
I doubt if there is an L144.2.

Yes, the volunteer/hobbyist researcher has been a great help to L21 in identifying these new SNPs and speculating as to their placement.  I think he's always called these positionings as "tentative." I don't want to scare him away, I think he's really a U106 guy just being extra passionate in helping the rest of us.

All of the speculation just gives us reasons to test, which is where the confirmation IS or IS NOT. There is no substitute for the testing.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 12:56:15 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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saphorr
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« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2011, 01:23:41 PM »

I doubt if there is an L144.2.

Yes, the volunteer/hobbyist researcher has been a great help to L21 in identifying these new SNPs and speculating as to their placement.  I think he's always called these positionings as "tentative." I don't want to scare him away, I think he's really a U106 guy just being extra passionate in helping the rest of us.

All of the speculation just gives us reasons to test, which is where the confirmation IS or IS NOT. There is no substitute for the testing.

I absolutely agree the caveats were there from the beginning and it's unfortunate the message was muddled along the way.  What I'd like to know is why L144 was thought to be below Z255 in the beginning.

The draft phylogeny mentioning Z255 was first referenced in a DNA Forums post of April 9.  That draft phylogeny is here: http://www.box.net/shared/7df64madd3.  The Z254 branch which contains Z255 and L144 has references to three 1000 Genomes samples: HG00119, HG00246, and NA12762.

It's stated in the same message that HG00246 was a no-call for L144.  Other messages from the R-L21 list make it clear that the following results hold:
HG00119: Z254+ Z255-
HG00246: Z254+ Z255+
NA12762: Z254+ Z255+

My question is, what are the L144 results for the other two 1000 Genomes samples, HG00119 and NA12762?  Finding that out could resolve this confusion right now.

If HG00119 is L144- and NA12762 is L144+, as the draft phylogeny suggests, then we have a real conundrum and we have to look at the possibility of a L144.2 or maybe a back mutation to L144-.  If one or more are no-calls, then there are other possibilities.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 01:24:13 PM by saphorr » Logged
F James
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« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2011, 09:16:41 PM »

If  Kendall L144+ tests for Z255 we may have an partial answer for two seperate L144 lines.

His haplotype is very different to the Whelan/Bracewell/Prosser/Maclaughlin/Clark  L144 haplotype.
It has been suggested that he test for Z255 as the Kendall family cluster "Group 1"  have three L144 tests,  2 positve and 1 negative.   If they are Z255+  they must be a seperate L144 line.

Kendall also posted a reply on Rootsweb that he had from FTDNA about the Kendall L144 tests:
"I followed up with the lab about L144. It is surrounded by a DNA
sequence that is more likely to experience mutations, making it
possible for this SNP to mutate back and forth. It can still be useful
to test this SNP, but it is perhaps a little less reliable than other
SNPs."




I'll have my Whelan L144+ relative test for Z254 when it becomes available. 
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2011, 09:38:28 PM »

That sounded similar to the status of L159.2 when it was first announced.

We will see if the L144+ Whalens are Z254+. Thank you for keeping us posted on the results!

I spoke with the Kendall administrator, and he is testing for Z255 now.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2011, 02:22:32 PM »

If  Kendall L144+ tests for Z255 we may have an partial answer for two seperate L144 lines.

His haplotype is very different to the Whelan/Bracewell/Prosser/Maclaughlin/Clark  L144 haplotype.
It has been suggested that he test for Z255 as the Kendall family cluster "Group 1"  have three L144 tests,  2 positve and 1 negative.   If they are Z255+  they must be a seperate L144 line.

Kendall also posted a reply on Rootsweb that he had from FTDNA about the Kendall L144 tests:
"I followed up with the lab about L144. It is surrounded by a DNA
sequence that is more likely to experience mutations, making it
possible for this SNP to mutate back and forth. It can still be useful
to test this SNP, but it is perhaps a little less reliable than other
SNPs."




I'll have my Whelan L144+ relative test for Z254 when it becomes available. 


Z254 is officially available to order.
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Jdean
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« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2011, 04:54:33 PM »


Z254 is officially available to order.

I'll be ordering this one when my DF23 neg result comes through :)
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F James
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« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2011, 06:20:18 AM »

Just ordering Z254 now for Whelan,  if its negative then I'll think about Z253 and or DF23.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #65 on: November 01, 2011, 09:55:31 AM »

Just ordering Z254 now for Whelan,  if its negative then I'll think about Z253 and or DF23.

I will be pulling for both you and JDean!
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Jdean
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« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2011, 02:51:10 PM »

Just ordering Z254 now for Whelan,  if its negative then I'll think about Z253 and or DF23.

I will be pulling for both you and JDean!

Thanks for that, and as luck would have it my DF23 neg result has just come in so I can make the deadline for ordering L254.

Getting all these negative results is a lot less painful when they don't keeping you hanging around for weeks (months for some) on end :)
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2011, 03:16:11 PM »

Just ordering Z254 now for Whelan,  if its negative then I'll think about Z253 and or DF23.

I will be pulling for both you and JDean!

Thanks for that, and as luck would have it my DF23 neg result has just come in so I can make the deadline for ordering L254.

Getting all these negative results is a lot less painful when they don't keeping you hanging around for weeks (months for some) on end :)

That's a good point. I have been noticing these SNP results coming back a lot quicker than before. Hopefully, you get a positive on Z254.
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OConnor
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« Reply #68 on: November 03, 2011, 07:45:23 AM »

a big surprise

I tested R-L159.2-

It's back to the R-L21 drawing board. :(
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rms2
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« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2011, 07:48:06 PM »

a big surprise

I tested R-L159.2-

It's back to the R-L21 drawing board. :(

Honestly, that is no surprise to me. I kind of expected it when you posted that your y-dna relative got an L159.2- result. Back to the Ireland category for you! ;-)

Have you ordered DF23 yet?
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OConnor
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« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2011, 08:19:11 PM »

No I haven't ordered DF23.

I will have a look around over the next few days to see what  I should test for.
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F James
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« Reply #71 on: November 10, 2011, 07:15:24 PM »

Whelan is L144+, Z254-, Z255-
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #72 on: November 10, 2011, 10:21:43 PM »

Whelan is L144+, Z254-, Z255-

Thank you, FJames. I was hoping for a positive result, but it is informative nevertheless. Do you know of any other L144+ folks who ordered Z254?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #73 on: November 10, 2011, 10:37:31 PM »

Speaking of other Z254 results, an L159.2+ sample returned Z254- as well!
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« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2011, 05:52:51 AM »

Whelan is L144+, Z254-, Z255-

Thank you, FJames. I was hoping for a positive result, but it is informative nevertheless. Do you know of any other L144+ folks who ordered Z254?
I'm not aware of any other L144 guys ordering Z254,  definately none in the Whelan project.
I see Kendall came in Z255-,  I dont know if he or Prosser have ordered Z254 aswell.

Have there been any Z254+ results today?


« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 05:53:28 AM by F James » Logged
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