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Author Topic: Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2  (Read 6617 times)
NealtheRed
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« on: September 20, 2011, 11:19:24 AM »

WTY results returned for an L159.2+ project member, and he is confirmed Z255+. This establishes a close, genetic relationship between L144 and L159.2 men, who now appear to belong to the same, ancient lineage.

Interestingly, L144 in Ireland is situated in the Southeast, close to its L159.2 cousins.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 11:21:44 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 04:13:32 PM »

I should probably note that L144+ men are Z255+ as well.

L144 is prominent in Whelan/Phelan men from Waterford and Laois, as well as some Prossers from Wales. It looks to follow the distribution of the Deisi, who appear to share ancestry with the Leinster chieftains.

Much like L159.2, L144 is found mostly on the western coast of Great Britain.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



OConnor
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 04:46:45 PM »

I just ordered the Z255 test.

Thanks for the good news.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 07:08:51 PM »

How many guys in both clades have Z255 results?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2011, 07:53:49 PM »

How many guys in both clades have Z255 results?

I know only of our L159.2 Murphy who just received his Z255+ result today through WTY. Dave Reynolds filled me in on this, by the way:

"Z255 just got more interesting. Previously, based on 1000 Genomes data, it was believed to be located at or above R-L144. The WTY results for kit 185218, R-L159.2 just came back, and it is also Z255+, including that Z255 is upstream from both R-L144 and R-L159.2".
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2011, 07:57:44 PM »

DF23 (including M222), DF21, and L513 are also Z255-.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



OConnor
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2011, 08:04:25 PM »

There are a fair number of  R1b1a2a1a1b4e       R-L144+
in the Whalen/Phelan Project.  I do not see any Z255+ people listed yet.
http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/whalen/result
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 08:07:02 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2011, 08:06:59 PM »

I may see it as a L159 only snp.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2011, 08:08:58 PM »

I may see it as a L159 only snp.

It has been confirmed that L144+ samples have tested Z255+ as well.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



OConnor
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2011, 08:53:48 PM »

another piece of the puzzle.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2011, 09:33:28 PM »

I think it pointed to being a fact but is was speculation occording to GregRM post DNA-Forumns stating

Posted 09 April 2011 - 19:40 PM

A draft phylogeny containing several additional candidate L21 SNPs indentified by the anonymous researcher and me is now posted at http://www.box.net/shared/7df64madd3 . Unlike DF1 and DF5, these have not been confirmed by sequencing at this point, and they have been given the names Z245-Z255 for the time being; the details have been added to the "L21 Candidate Variants" sheet at https://spreadsheets...=CIOag_UD#gid=3 .
 
Some notes:
 -A few of these are more speculative, and have been highlighted in orange; further details appear in the notes on the "L21 Candidate Variants" sheet
 -The researcher thinks that Z253 is a promising candidate for testing by Iberian L21 individuals
 -The possibility that Z255 would be phylogenetically equivalent to L144 could not be ruled out (hence the dashed line)
 -Z245 is currently placed with L21, though it could be upstream (or less likely, downstream)

http://www.box.net/shared/66415pac2c5gmrc8z5re
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2011, 09:33:35 PM »

another piece of the puzzle.

It would be interesting to get someone who is L226+ to test for Z255 as well. So far, we are still waiting on L226 results to confirm Z255's relationship to that cluster as well.

A very interesting development, indeed...
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 09:36:04 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2011, 10:32:50 PM »

I don't know if everyone realizes this, but all of the new SNPs and their effective "layering" of subclades will be helpful for TMRCA estimates.

Ken Nordtvedt already had built an interclade TMRCA calculation method which reduces error. He has extended it to do "nested" TMRCA calculations.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
F James
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2011, 06:33:49 AM »

Does anyone know which  L144+ tested postive for Z255.  I'm sure its not a Whelan/Phelan,  but it might be a Brazile or Prosser in the WTY project.

NealtheRed,  have you any idea on the TRMCA between L159.2, L144 and L226??


Side note
I noticed on Rootsweb a while back that Kendal, L144+ (but different haplotype to the usual L144+)  was querying his result as a relative tested L144-.






« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 06:34:58 AM by Frances James » Logged
NealtheRed
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2011, 03:41:06 PM »

Does anyone know which  L144+ tested postive for Z255.  I'm sure its not a Whelan/Phelan,  but it might be a Brazile or Prosser in the WTY project.

NealtheRed,  have you any idea on the TRMCA between L159.2, L144 and L226??


Side note
I noticed on Rootsweb a while back that Kendal, L144+ (but different haplotype to the usual L144+)  was querying his result as a relative tested L144-.








I am not sure which L144+ sample tested Z255+, as it was in the 1000 Genomes Project. Dave Reynolds may be able to answer your question more aptly than me. We do know of the Z255+, L144/L159.2- and Z254+, Z255- samples. The former has ancestry from Cornwall, while the latter is from Orkney. 

As far as age estimates between L159.2 and L144, we have not calculated any interclade TMRCA figures. However, we have ascertained that L159.2 is likely 2000 years old based on our current sampling. Some recent L159.2+ results suggest it could be older. Kirsten Saxe is another great resource on this, as she is one of the R-WTY administrators.

The Kendal result appears to be a lab/clerical error. The L144 haplotype is very distinct, and I notice it among those that you mention (Prosser, Whalen/Phalen, MacLaughlin), as well as some Scottish Highlanders (Cameron, MacDonald, MacMasters). It looks to follow a similar distribution to L159.2, but could have an increased presence in Wales and Southwest England.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



F James
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« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2011, 03:48:33 AM »

Thanks Nealthered,

It looks like the L144+ guy was from Hapmap? data.  A man from Utah with Western or Northern European ancestry.

Maybe I should get a Whelan guy tested for Z255.  Looking forward to seeing more results.

PS; I'm not sure MacMaster is L144,   he is in J haplogroup,  but has 413a/b = 16/17.
Though going by haplotype and matches,  Durie from Scotland, Cameron from Isle of Tiree Scotland and Dorris from County Down all look to match MacDonald and MacLaughlin,  and Braithwaite from Yorkshire might if he tested to 67.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2011, 08:01:31 AM »

Thanks Nealthered,

It looks like the L144+ guy was from Hapmap? data.  A man from Utah with Western or Northern European ancestry.

Maybe I should get a Whelan guy tested for Z255.  Looking forward to seeing more results.

PS; I'm not sure MacMaster is L144,   he is in J haplogroup,  but has 413a/b = 16/17.
Though going by haplotype and matches,  Durie from Scotland, Cameron from Isle of Tiree Scotland and Dorris from County Down all look to match MacDonald and MacLaughlin,  and Braithwaite from Yorkshire might if he tested to 67.

The R1b MacMaster who is a close match to one of the L144+ Whalens can be found by his Ysearch ID: 8G53X

I notice all the above names as matches, and predict them to test Z255+, L144+.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



OConnor
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« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2011, 04:47:38 AM »

I recieved my DF21- result.


Now I await my Z255 result.

Z255(Z255)  11/07/2011 
Batch/431
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2011, 09:25:01 PM »

I recieved my DF21- result.


Now I await my Z255 result.

Z255(Z255)  11/07/2011 
Batch/431

Excellent, Mike. I look forward to your Z255 result!
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2011, 08:15:43 AM »

Kirsten Saxe just informed me that the CCGG/L159.2- McConnell lineage has tested Z255+! It looks very promising now in connecting our Irish Sea L159.2- folks with the L159.2+ ones.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



F James
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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2011, 10:35:38 PM »

Great news Nealthered,

Do you know if any men from L226 or South Irish Type sub groups have tested for Z255? 

Ive ordered Z255 for my L144+ relative. 
I saw a recent post on Rootsweb that Kendall and one of his relatives are  L144+,  and another Kendall relative is L144-.  It was suggested to Scott that they test for Z255 aswell. 
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F James
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« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2011, 11:13:14 PM »

I just checked out the SNP pages at L226 and South Irish projects.
No Z255+.  


L226 Project
Brown L226+ Z255-
(Casey L226+, Z253+)    I can't remember where Z253 fits in.


South Irish Project
Stabley Z255-
Carroll Z255-
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 06:29:29 AM by F James » Logged
NealtheRed
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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2011, 08:42:53 AM »

I just checked out the SNP pages at L226 and South Irish projects.
No Z255+.  


L226 Project
Brown L226+ Z255-
(Casey L226+, Z253+)    I can't remember where Z253 fits in.


South Irish Project
Stabley Z255-
Carroll Z255-

Thank you for clarifying this. I did not know L226's relation to Z255 up to now. I want to say Z253 is on another lineage connecting to L226 (separate from Z254/Z255), but I have to check on that.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



OConnor
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« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2011, 07:20:08 AM »

I turned out Z255-
We shall see if other L159.2+ are also Z255-

P312+ P25+ M343+ M269+ M207+ M173+ L21+ L159.2+ Z255- SRY2627- P66- M73- M65- M37- M222- M18- M160- M153- M126- L96- L195- L193- L192.1- L144- L130- DF21-
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 07:22:13 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2011, 09:31:01 AM »

I turned out Z255-
We shall see if other L159.2+ are also Z255-

P312+ P25+ M343+ M269+ M207+ M173+ L21+ L159.2+ Z255- SRY2627- P66- M73- M65- M37- M222- M18- M160- M153- M126- L96- L195- L193- L192.1- L144- L130- DF21-

That's odd. I never got notification of your results, but I see it now on your Haplotree. Thanks for letting us know, Mike. With more results, we will figure out how it fits in with the grand scheme of things.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



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