Z255 - Connecting L144 and L159.2

[OConnor]

I sent ftdna another email. They suggested earlier that they would look over the raw data. Hopefully i will get some answers soon.

[rms2]

I turned out Z255-
We shall see if other L159.2+ are also Z255-

P312+ P25+ M343+ M269+ M207+ M173+ L21+ L159.2+ Z255- SRY2627- P66- M73- M65- M37- M222- M18- M160- M153- M126- L96- L195- L193- L192.1- L144- L130- DF21-

Didn't you say you had a y-dna relative who tested L159.2-? How did that work out with FTDNA?

Did they re-check both of you for L159.2?

[OConnor]

i haven't had a reply yet. The email i sent yesterday to ftdna had both my cousin's and mine kit numbers, and results.

Hopefully i will hear something soon. I was told last week that if I didn't get a response from Thomas Krahn by last weekend to let them know. So i did that yesterday, and now I wait.

[OConnor]

ftdna is going to re-run my L159.2 test.
Also I got an answer from Thomas via ftdna as to the stability of R-L159.2

"L159 is a marker that is composed of an intercalation of a poly G
homopolymer with a (TG)n dinucleotide STR. We need to expect STR like
mutation mechanisms from both directions, therefore the mutation
frequency will be more similar to an STR (rather than a SNP).

I personally wouldn't trust the stability at a phylogenetic level beyond
the genealogically relevant time frame. However we didn't explicitly
collect stability data such as mutation frequencies for this kind of
markers"

[NealtheRed]

ftdna is going to re-run my L159.2 test.
Also I got an answer from Thomas via ftdna as to the stability of R-L159.2

"L159 is a marker that is composed of an intercalation of a poly G
homopolymer with a (TG)n dinucleotide STR. We need to expect STR like
mutation mechanisms from both directions, therefore the mutation
frequency will be more similar to an STR (rather than a SNP).

I personally wouldn't trust the stability at a phylogenetic level beyond
the genealogically relevant time frame. However we didn't explicitly
collect stability data such as mutation frequencies for this kind of
markers"

Yes, Thomas Krahn mentioned this when L159.2 testing started to take off. I am glad we found Z255 (and Z254) to unite the Irish Sea Modal folks and those that are outliers but obviously are related.

I hope you come out positive, Mike, as always. Then again, there is always Z254 testing if you want to consider that later.

[rms2]

ftdna is going to re-run my L159.2 test.
Also I got an answer from Thomas via ftdna as to the stability of R-L159.2

"L159 is a marker that is composed of an intercalation of a poly G
homopolymer with a (TG)n dinucleotide STR. We need to expect STR like
mutation mechanisms from both directions, therefore the mutation
frequency will be more similar to an STR (rather than a SNP).

I personally wouldn't trust the stability at a phylogenetic level beyond
the genealogically relevant time frame. However we didn't explicitly
collect stability data such as mutation frequencies for this kind of
markers"

That requires some translation, but it doesn't sound like the typical, straightforward SNP. I had heard something similar back when L159.2 was first discovered, which is why I felt some misgivings about it. But then it got added to the YCC Tree, so there it is.

Good luck with it!

[rms2]

Are you all sure L144 is downstream of Z255?

Prosser, kit 57993, Ysearch YYQVA, who is L144+, just got a Z255- result.

[seferhabahir]

Are you all sure L144 is downstream of Z255?

Prosser, kit 57993, Ysearch YYQVA, who is L144+, just got a Z255- result.

Well, maybe neither L144+ nor L159.2+ are downstream of Z255, contrary to popular belief. This week is just full of surprises.

[seferhabahir]

Are you all sure L144 is downstream of Z255?

Prosser, kit 57993, Ysearch YYQVA, who is L144+, just got a Z255- result.

Well, maybe neither L144+ nor L159.2+ are downstream of Z255, contrary to popular belief. This week is just full of surprises.

I think I'll go have some Highland Park 18 and practice being Celtic...

[Mikewww]

Are you all sure L144 is downstream of Z255?

Prosser, kit 57993, Ysearch YYQVA, who is L144+, just got a Z255- result.

Well, maybe neither L144+ nor L159.2+ are downstream of Z255, contrary to popular belief. This week is just full of surprises.

Is Z255 suspected of being unstable?
What was the SNP that both L144 and L159.2 were found positive on?  Z255 or Z253?

The Z's are getting a bit confusing.

[saphorr]

Is Z255 suspected of being unstable?
What was the SNP that both L144 and L159.2 were found positive on?  Z255 or Z253?

The Z's are getting a bit confusing.

That was Z255.

Z253 is the one which united L226 and L554.  That result looks like it's here to stay at least.

[NealtheRed]

Are you all sure L144 is downstream of Z255?

Prosser, kit 57993, Ysearch YYQVA, who is L144+, just got a Z255- result.

Interesting. The 1000 Genomes L144+ tested Z255+ as well. Either this has been a surprising week, or maybe there are some lab errors.

As far as the stability, Z255 has been consistent thus far in connecting L159.2+ and L159.2- Irish Sea lineages.

[NealtheRed]

I found an interesting diagram illustrating the relationship between Z254/Z255 and L144. Notice the serrated line from Z255 to L144 implying that the L144+ sample is Z255+.

Click here: http://www.box.net/shared/qljxuisx9a

Maybe the relationship between Z255 and L144 was not confirmed. On the other hand, we are at a 100% Z255+ testing rate for the Irish Sea Modal folks.

[rms2]

Well, I noticed in the earlier posts that no one could actually name an L144+ man who was Z255+. Now we have a real L144+ man who has been tested for Z255 and found to be negative for it.

So, was the supposed Z255/L144 connection a mistake, based on hearsay? That's what it looks like.

We do have some L159.2+ guys who are Z255+, however; so the connection there is confirmed.

[NealtheRed]

Well, I noticed in the earlier posts that no one could actually name an L144+ man who was Z255+. Now we have a real L144+ man who has been tested for Z255 and found to be negative for it.

So, was the supposed Z255/L144 connection a mistake, based on hearsay? That's what it looks like.

We do have some L159.2+ guys who are Z255+, however; so the connection there is confirmed.

Ambiguity was definitely involved. I looked over a message from Kirsten Saxe about the two samples from 1000 Genomes that tested positive for Z255:

"you should be able to see that Z255 was
 found in two individuals in the 1000 Genomes project, one of whom also is
believed to carry the L144 SNP."

Quality assurance, anyone?

[rms2]

This could be a good thing. L159.2 was always a little shaky. If Z255 is a "traditional" SNP, and if all L159.2+ guys are positive for it, it may be a step up, an improvement.

(I am not sure what Mike's situation is. Since he has a y-dna relative who is L159.2-, and Mike himself tested Z255-, he may in fact be L159.2-. Or perhaps his version of L159.2 is more an STR mutation than anything else.)

[seferhabahir]

So, was the supposed Z255/L144 connection a mistake, based on hearsay? That's what it looks like.

We do have some L159.2+ guys who are Z255+, however; so the connection there is confirmed.

I was referring to the anomalous Mr. O'Connor:

N12172    Andrew O'Connor 1802 S.Ireland R1b1a2a1a1b4f    

DF21-, L130-, L144-, L159.2+, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L21+, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P25+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, Z255-

[NealtheRed]

So, was the supposed Z255/L144 connection a mistake, based on hearsay? That's what it looks like.

We do have some L159.2+ guys who are Z255+, however; so the connection there is confirmed.

I was referring to the anomalous Mr. O'Connor:

N12172    Andrew O'Connor 1802 S.Ireland R1b1a2a1a1b4f    

DF21-, L130-, L144-, L159.2+, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L21+, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P25+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, Z255-

Mike's L159.2+ result may be due to a lab error, so FTDNA is rerunning the test. Moreover, his cousin returned L159.2-.

His haplotype deviates considerably from the Irish Sea Modal, which is defined by a number of STR values:

DYS448: 18
CDYa/b: 38 or higher, 39 or higher
DYS442: 11
DYS557: 17
DYS446: 14

Those L159.2+ members who match the above modal and test for Z255 are all returning Z255+.

[rms2]

Ever since I heard that Mike's y-dna relative got an L159.2- result, I suspected that Mike was the one with the erroneous L159.2 result (although I could be wrong, obviously). I remembered reading one of your exchanges with him in which the two of you discussed how different his haplotype is from the usual L159.2 folks.

His recent Z255- result just seems to be more evidence that he is probably not L159.2+.

We'll see how FTDNA's re-test comes out.

[Mikewww]

Ever since I heard that Mike's y-dna relative got an L159.2- result, I suspected that Mike was the one with the erroneous L159.2 result (although I could be wrong, obviously). I remembered reading one of your exchanges with him in which the two of you discussed how different his haplotype is from the usual L159.2 folks.

His recent Z255- result just seems to be more evidence that he is probably not L159.2+.

We'll see how FTDNA's re-test comes out.

His STRs are quite a bit different than the Irish Sea folks.  If he comes out L159+ I also think we should call it it L159.3+

[F James]

Well, I noticed in the earlier posts that no one could actually name an L144+ man who was Z255+. Now we have a real L144+ man who has been tested for Z255 and found to be negative for it.

So, was the supposed Z255/L144 connection a mistake, based on hearsay? That's what it looks like.

We do have some L159.2+ guys who are Z255+, however; so the connection there is confirmed.

Prosser tested Z255-  so I'm sure my Whelan relative will aswell.
I'm not sure if Kendall, who is L144+ and of a different haplotype, is testing for Z255.  Robert Hughes may know as all three guys are in his 17-14-10 project

Unfortunately we have no idea of the identity or haplotype of the L144+ man in the 1000 genomes project who is supposedly Z255+. 


I'll get my relative tested for Z254 when that comes out.

[rms2]

I suspect there is no L144+ man who is Z255+ but rather that there was a miscommunication somewhere.

[rms2]

I suspect there is no L144+ man who is Z255+ but rather that there was a miscommunication somewhere.

It looks like I was right. Whelan, kit 83115, who is L144+, just got his Z255- result.

[Jdean]

I suspect there is no L144+ man who is Z255+ but rather that there was a miscommunication somewhere.

It looks like I was right. Whelan, kit 83115, who is L144+, just got his Z255- result.

Tis a shame, hopefully the misreading was with Z155 and not L144 and Z254 will bring more luck.

[NealtheRed]

I suspect there is no L144+ man who is Z255+ but rather that there was a miscommunication somewhere.

It looks like I was right. Whelan, kit 83115, who is L144+, just got his Z255- result.

Thanks for keeping us all posted, Rich! We were waiting on that result. So it looks like L159.2 is the only descendant of Z255 thus far.

And I agree with JDean. We need to establish if L144 is downstream of Z254 as well. I doubt that though, considering everything was based on that 1000 Genomes sample that was assumed to be L144+.