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Mike23
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« Reply #100 on: February 09, 2012, 08:50:58 PM »

Perhaps SW France for DF23's origins. There is one other Frenchman who lives in Northern Italy named Bonnet whose ancestors likely came from Toulouse.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #101 on: February 17, 2012, 07:11:04 PM »

Having looked at the new FTDNA project maps and being very aware that France is unbelievably undertested, the three DF23* people in France already (and not elsewhere on the mainland continent) seems a strong pattern that cant be chance.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 06:05:28 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #102 on: February 20, 2012, 11:15:27 AM »

Of the French L21+ people I'm aware of, these are the ones with 481>=23.

f176268   Gontaut __ R-L21/L96   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees
fE5171   Rotrou ___ R-L21   EW Fra North & Central
f73834   Landon ___ R-L21   EW Fra z unk
f127515   Dupuis____ R-L21   EW Fra North Atlantic
f160587   Bodine____ R-L21   EW Fra North Atlantic
f182980   Georgel___ R-L21   EW Fra Northeast
fN82517   Pontbriant R-L21   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees

f18917   Brun _____ R-L21/DF23*   EW Fra North Atlantic
f57411   Fournier__ R-L21/DF23/M222   EW Fra North Atlantic
f78065   Lamphier__ R-L21/DF23*   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees
fN92711   LeProvost_ R-L21/DF23*   EW Fra North & Central

Of course, the bottom set is already proven DF23+ while the top seven are have not been tested. These would be the prime candidates, from my perspective.
We have a volunteer, Dubhthach, who'll pay for a test for the L96 guy, if needed.
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Mike23
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« Reply #103 on: February 29, 2012, 02:31:29 PM »

Having looked at the new FTDNA project maps and being very aware that France is unbelievably undertested, the three DF23* people in France already (and not elsewhere on the mainland continent) seems a strong pattern that cant be chance.

Add in 7 of the remaining 8 DF23's in the L21 Plus DNA project who appear to have Norman-French surnames and you can conclude that DF23 originated on the Continent and did not arrive in Britain and Ireland until the 11th to 13th Centuries AD. This leaves you with the unusual situation where the ancestral clade ( DF23 ) arrived in the Isles some 700 or more years AFTER the descendant clade ( M222 ).

Mike Hannan
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #104 on: February 29, 2012, 02:40:57 PM »

Having looked at the new FTDNA project maps and being very aware that France is unbelievably undertested, the three DF23* people in France already (and not elsewhere on the mainland continent) seems a strong pattern that cant be chance.

Add in 7 of the remaining 8 DF23's in the L21 Plus DNA project who appear to have Norman-French surnames and you can conclude that DF23 originated on the Continent and did not arrive in Britain and Ireland until the 11th to 13th Centuries AD. This leaves you with the unusual situation where the ancestral clade ( DF23 ) arrived in the Isles some 700 or more years AFTER the descendant clade ( M222 ).

Mike Hannan

Personally I think the issue is one of history repeating itself due to basic geography and sea routes.  I mean that both the prehistoric settlers of the Atlantic areas of the isles and, much later, the non-Norse element (which was probably the vast majority) of the Normans essentially came from the same area and, although separated by a long period and changes is languages and cultures, they came predominantly from the same stock of Atlantic France (perhaps mostly from the Seine to the Garrone).  I dont know if that is correct but it certainly is not out of step with archaeology.   DF23 in this model may have arrived several times in the isles.
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OConnor
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« Reply #105 on: March 15, 2012, 07:41:22 PM »

Maybe it came initially from Scandinavia?

Is there a lot riding against this idea?
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike23
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« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2012, 08:58:04 PM »

DF23 Surname Analysis

Of the 13 people reported in the L21 Plus Project, the following are the surname results as of 3-28-2012:

3 French
8 Norman French
1 English
1 Irish

Regards,

Mike Hannan
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eochaidh
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« Reply #107 on: March 28, 2012, 10:55:59 PM »

DF23 Surname Analysis

Of the 13 people reported in the L21 Plus Project, the following are the surname results as of 3-28-2012:

3 French
8 Norman French
1 English
1 Irish

Regards,

Mike Hannan

What?! How familiar are you with Irish names?

Kehoe, Byrne, O'Beirne, Anglin and Caldwell are all native names. Plus, a Kelly was added today. Martin can be Norman and can be native Irish.

Anglin (O hAngluinn) and Caldwell (Mac Cathmhaoil/Mac Conluain) have English sounding translations, but they're Irish names.

And, if you're another eedjit who thinks Kehoe (Mac Eochadha/MacEochaidh/Mac Eoghu) is Hawaiian, I'll have to ask you to step outside! Well, me and the many hundreds of Kehoes in Wexford, Carlow and Wicklow... including my family in Kilrush Parish, Co. Wexford! Insane!

In ainm an diabhal, Maolmordha Mac Eochadha (Miles Kehoe DF23+, M222-)
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Jean M
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« Reply #108 on: March 29, 2012, 06:42:15 AM »

The names:

French:
Vincent Brun, b. abt. 1616, Poitou, France
Thomas Lamphier, 1570 Lanquedoc, France
Le Provost (Avranches Manche ca1580-1640)

Norman French:
William H Warren; - de Warenne

British:
Jonas Eaton, 1618-1674; - from one of the English places called Eaton or Eton
William Johnson; - son of John
Ephraim Stephens bc 1710 Scotland; - son of Stephen

Irish:
James Anglin, b.c. 1720 (Ireland)
Mogue Kehoe b.1799 Kiltilly, Co. Wexford, Ireland;
Martin Kelly

Anglo or Gaelic:
Robert Caldwell;
Charles James Moore Martin 1824 County Antrim;

Fentress Co. Tn;  - a  place, not a person. 
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eochaidh
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« Reply #109 on: March 29, 2012, 11:10:50 AM »

The names:

French:
Vincent Brun, b. abt. 1616, Poitou, France
Thomas Lamphier, 1570 Lanquedoc, France
Le Provost (Avranches Manche ca1580-1640)

Norman French:
William H Warren; - de Warenne

British:
Jonas Eaton, 1618-1674; - from one of the English places called Eaton or Eton
William Johnson; - son of John
Ephraim Stephens bc 1710 Scotland; - son of Stephen

Irish:
James Anglin, b.c. 1720 (Ireland)
Mogue Kehoe b.1799 Kiltilly, Co. Wexford, Ireland;
Martin Kelly

Anglo or Gaelic:
Robert Caldwell;
Charles James Moore Martin 1824 County Antrim;

Fentress Co. Tn;  - a  place, not a person. 

Thank you. Sanity has returned. :)
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #110 on: March 30, 2012, 01:10:07 PM »

The names:

French:
Vincent Brun, b. abt. 1616, Poitou, France
Thomas Lamphier, 1570 Lanquedoc, France
Le Provost (Avranches Manche ca1580-1640)

Norman French:
William H Warren; - de Warenne

British:
Jonas Eaton, 1618-1674; - from one of the English places called Eaton or Eton
William Johnson; - son of John
Ephraim Stephens bc 1710 Scotland; - son of Stephen

Irish:
James Anglin, b.c. 1720 (Ireland)
Mogue Kehoe b.1799 Kiltilly, Co. Wexford, Ireland;
Martin Kelly

Anglo or Gaelic:
Robert Caldwell;
Charles James Moore Martin 1824 County Antrim;

Fentress Co. Tn;  - a  place, not a person. 

I think its very significant that the hopelessly undertested French as so well represented in that group.   
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eochaidh
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« Reply #111 on: April 03, 2012, 11:03:44 AM »

Okay, not to take away from the French origin of DF23+, M222-, but I have noticed something to do with a few of the Irish names. In the old genealogies of Ireland (which are laughable and incorrect...just protecting myself) the name Kehoe/Keogh is connected with O'Byrne in Leinster and O'Kelly in Ui Maine. We have all three names among the current DF23, M222-. It is sometimes written that the Ui Maine are part of the Ulster tribe of Airghialla. So far I, as a Kehoe, don't match with any other Kehoe/Keogh of Leinster and no other Leinster families. The O'Beirne listed is a spelling more commonly found among Ui Maine families.

Perhaps, there is a connection with DF23+, M222- and Ulster (after they came from France!!!!). And suppose Brun is a French rendering of O' Byrne. The French rendering of Irish names is fairly common in Quebec and there were Irish who migrated to France.

I will now duck and cover,  Miles Kehoe DF23+, M222-
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Jean M
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« Reply #112 on: April 03, 2012, 01:46:22 PM »

Kehoe/Keogh in Ui Maine is interesting Miles, though I would wait awhile to see what else turns up.

I'm all for Irish genealogy in general, and the promise it gives of surname/DNA matches which can take us back further than in Britain. We just have to be a bit careful with the early stuff, like any other source of that date.

There is no relationship between Brun (which is the French equivalent of Brown and pretty common) and O'Byrne, descendant of Bran. Whatever might might happen in Quebec, this Brun is descended from a French Brun.

Kelly is too common to get us anywhere I'm afraid.

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #113 on: April 03, 2012, 05:53:01 PM »

Kehoe/Keogh in Ui Maine is interesting Miles, though I would wait awhile to see what else turns up.

I'm all for Irish genealogy in general, and the promise it gives of surname/DNA matches which can take us back further than in Britain. We just have to be a bit careful with the early stuff, like any other source of that date.

There is no relationship between Brun (which is the French equivalent of Brown and pretty common) and O'Byrne, descendant of Bran. Whatever might might happen in Quebec, this Brun is descended from a French Brun.

Kelly is too common to get us anywhere I'm afraid.



Well "Byrne" is one of those names where several different names in irish lanuage have ended up with one angliscation. In case of Roscommon (North of Uí Maine) you have Ó Birn (basically O'Burn)

Quote
Ó BIRN—O Birn, O Birne, O Byrn, O'Beirne, O'Bierne, O'Byrne, Birne, Beirne, Byrne, Birnes, Byrns, Byrnes, (Byron, Burns); 'descendant of Biorn' (the Norse personal name Bjorn); a variant of Ó Beirn, which see. The present is the usual form of the name in the Annals; Ó Beirn was apparently more common at a later period. There are two distinct families of the name in Connacht: (1) Ó Birn of Siol-Muireadhaig. This family first came into prominence as stewards to the O'Connors, Kings of Connacht and sometimes of all Ireland. About the middle of the 13th century, they superseded the O'Monaghans as chiefs of Tir-Bhriuin, a beautiful district in Co. Roscommon, a position which they continued to hold for more than three hundred years. In the year 1570, Teig Byrne, alias O Byrne, was 'the chiefest of Tirowyne' (Tir-Bhriuin), and several gentlemen of the name are mentioned in the Fiants of Elizabeth. (2) Ó Birn of Ui Fiachrach. This family enjoyed, at the beginning of the 15th century, a considerable estate in Co. Mayo, a little to the north of Ballinrobe, and there were respectable families of the name in that county at the end of the 16th century. O'Donovan found the name, under the anglicised form of Byrne, in the very district anciently occupied by the family. O'Beirne and O'Byrne were in use in Lecale, Co. Down, at the beginning of the 17th century, but whether the Irish was Ó Birn, or Ó Broin (which see), I am unable to say.

Ceallach was an extremely popular firstname in early medieval Ireland. In case of Ó Ceallaigh there are at least nine septs:

Quote
Ó CEALLAIGH—I—O'Kelly, Kelly, Kelley; 'descendant of Ceallach' (war, contention); the name of several distinct families, of which the following are the best known: (1) Ó Ceallaigh of Ui Maine, a branch of the Oirghialla of Ulster. They were one of the most powerful families in Connacht, and as chiefs of Ui Maine ruled over an extensive territory in the counties of Galway and Roscommon, which they held down to the reign of Elizabeth. This family produced many distinguished chiefs, among them Tadhg Mór Ó Ceallaigh who fell at Clontarf in 1014. (2) Ó Ceallaigh of Breagh, a branch of the southern Ui Neill, who were lords of Breagh, an extensive district embracing a large portion of Meath and the north of Co. Dublin, until after the Anglo-Norman invasion, when they were dispossessed and dispersed throughout Ireland. Conghalach Ó Ceallaigh, the last lord of Breagh, died in 1292. (3) Ó Ceallaigh of Cinel Eachach in the barony of Loughinsholin, Co. Derry, where they are still numerous; (4) Ó Ceallaigh of Leighe, now Lea, (5) Ó Ceallaigh of Magh Druchtain, (6) Ó Ceallaigh of Gallen, all three in Leix; (7) Ó Ceallaigh of Ui Teigh, in the north of the present Co. Wicklow; (8) Ó Ceallaigh of Árd Ó gCeallaigh, in the parish of Templeboy, Co. Sligo; and (9) Ó Ceallaigh of Corca Laoighdhe, in the south-west of Co. Cork.

There are two septs of MacCeallaigh, at least one is same as Ó Cealaigh of Uí Máine. As a Galwegian I an attest that Kelly is still extremely common surname in County Galway, as is Madden. Do we know of any Madden's that match DF23 signature?

Quote
Ó MADÁIN—I—O Maddane, O Madden, Madden; 'descendant of Madadhán' (diminutive of madadh, a dog); older form Ó Madadháin, now generally Ó Madaidhín, which see, with variants Ó Madaidh and Ó Madagáin, which see; the name of a distinguished branch of the Ui Maine in Co. Galway, who derive their descent from Madadhán (slain in 1008), who was son of Gadhra Mor, chief of Ui Maine from 1014 to 1027, and are of the same stock as the O'Kellys, with whom they originally formed one clan—the Ui Maine. About the middle of the 11th century, Siol nAnmchadha, a sub-division of the Ui Maine, became independent, and from that period down to the middle of the 17th century the chieftaincy of Siol nAnmchadha continued in almost unbroken succession in the family of O'Madden. The clan-lands, which in accordance with Irish usage were named from the clan, comprised the barony of Longford, in the south-east of Co. Galway, and the parish of Lusnagh, on the other side of the Shannon, in the present Offaly. Many distinguished chiefs of the name are mentioned in the Irish annals. In 1612, Donal O'Madden, 'captain of his nation,' settled his manor and castle of Longford and all his other estates in Co. Galway on his son and heir, Anmchadh, or Ambrose, O'Madden, in tail male. Ambrose died in 1637, and was succeeded by his son, John O'Madden. John's property was confiscated after the Cromwellian wars, but was in part restored in 1677 by grant under the Act of Settlement. Five of the name were attainted in 1691. The O'Maddens of Co. Antrim (formerly called O Maddegane) are probably a distinct family. On the other hand, there is reason to believe that the Anglo-Irish family of Madden, formerly of Baggotrath, near Dublin, is a branch of the O'Maddens of Siol nAnmchadha.

The Uí Máine are interestin, obviously as mention there is the connection to Oirialla (Airghíalla -- old Irish) however there is also the fact that they later changed their genealogy to claim that they were descended from Máine mac Néill (ala Niall)

Even if you ignore such fabrications of genalogy the political geography would have seen them surrounded in most directions by Connachta populations. There's a probability that they were all part of one tribal confederation or were military vassals which at later times were given favourable genealogies for political reasons in the 7-9th centuries.
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OConnor
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« Reply #114 on: April 03, 2012, 06:04:20 PM »

Has there been much testing for DF23 in Scotland?
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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