World Families Forums - DF23

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 21, 2014, 07:44:10 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  DF23
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 Go Down Print
Author Topic: DF23  (Read 10211 times)
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #75 on: November 20, 2011, 12:59:39 AM »

Wales and SW England were also heavily settled by Irish during the post-Roman period. Some of them settled there during the Roman period itself and were commissioned by the Romans to keep their fellow Irish out.
Has anyone done any analysis of the impact of migrations from western Britain to Ireland versus the other way around?

I'd guess the larger impact would be from Britain to Ireland but I don't know.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 12:59:58 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2011, 08:42:07 AM »

Wales and SW England were also heavily settled by Irish during the post-Roman period. Some of them settled there during the Roman period itself and were commissioned by the Romans to keep their fellow Irish out.
Has anyone done any analysis of the impact of migrations from western Britain to Ireland versus the other way around?

I'd guess the larger impact would be from Britain to Ireland but I don't know.

It depends on the time period, I think. The Irish Sea was the Celtic Mediterranean, so to speak, Mare Nostrum; there was always a lot of movement back and forth.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2011, 09:11:44 PM »

Interesting news: DF23xM222 has claimed its first continental that I know of. He is Provost, kit N92711, and his ancestor came from Normandy. He has the telltale 481=24.

Provost has a fair number of close British Isles matches at 37 markers, but no 67-marker matches at all per FTDNA.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 09:12:13 PM by rms2 » Logged

eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2011, 11:32:56 PM »

Interesting news: DF23xM222 has claimed its first continental that I know of. He is Provost, kit N92711, and his ancestor came from Normandy. He has the telltale 481=24.

Provost has a fair number of close British Isles matches at 37 markers, but no 67-marker matches at all per FTDNA.

Is (Le) Provost French-Canadian or other New World French?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 11:45:57 PM by eochaidh » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #79 on: November 30, 2011, 05:16:35 PM »

Interesting news: DF23xM222 has claimed its first continental that I know of. He is Provost, kit N92711, and his ancestor came from Normandy. He has the telltale 481=24.

Provost has a fair number of close British Isles matches at 37 markers, but no 67-marker matches at all per FTDNA.

Is (Le) Provost French-Canadian or other New World French?
Kirsten S just answered this on the Yahoo Group.  She says he is "Old World" not a French-Canadian or the like.
I checked his GD's with the other DF23* people that have 67 markers. Le Prevost's GDs range from 16 to 26 to the others.
A GD of 26 is quite ways so DF23 must have happened quite a bit before M222.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 05:18:13 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #80 on: November 30, 2011, 05:42:09 PM »

I think your original "rough" age estimate was: L21 4,000 ybp, DF23 3,000 ybp, and M222 2,000 ybp.

What really seems notable is how different the current DF23 haplotypes are from each other. Very strange. And then our descendant, M222 is so completely different from us and L21. What is going on?!  :)
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2011, 06:45:04 PM »

I think your original "rough" age estimate was: L21 4,000 ybp, DF23 3,000 ybp, and M222 2,000 ybp.

What really seems notable is how different the current DF23 haplotypes are from each other. Very strange. And then our descendant, M222 is so completely different from us and L21. What is going on?!  :)
I think DF23 could actually be older than that, but of course can't be older than L21.  I think the M222 branch in the of DF23 family tree got lucky somewhere along the line about AD 1 to AD 500.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2011, 01:54:12 AM »

but where did it get lucky?
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2011, 10:03:52 PM »

but where did it get lucky?
M222 was very prolific in fairly recent times in the north of Ireland and in Scotland.  He might have been just another subclade over in some place like England.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #84 on: December 03, 2011, 07:48:31 PM »

M222 got lucky in Anatolia?
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #85 on: December 03, 2011, 09:18:45 PM »

M222 got lucky in Anatolia?

I mean a DF23 got lucky and started the M222 line in Anatolia.

Please explain. Honestly, I don't mean to be argumentative or offensive, but I don't know of even any R-L21 in Anatolia, let alone R-DF23 or R-M222.

It seems to me L21 did not emerge from its P312 base until after that base first arrived in France or perhaps western Germany, or maybe even northern Spain. The jury is out on whether DF23 was born in the British Isles or the Continent.

I could see Anatolia as the Urheimat of M269 or maybe L23, but not DF23 or M222.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 09:20:51 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike23
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 19


« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2011, 11:34:18 AM »

Here is what I am suggesting regarding the M222's in the Isles:

Around 400-500 BC, some Volcae Tectasages plus the Tolistobogii and Trocmi tribes left what may have been a DF23 hotspot in SW France around Toulouse and wound up around 280 BC in Anatolia. They became known as the Galatians and became M222 during their residence in Anatolia.

The Galatians provided troops to the Ptolemies and the Romans. One Legion, known to be Galatian, was the 22nd Deiotarian Legion.

I believe that this Legion was posted to Britain, perhaps in the 3rd Century and deserted the Wall in 367 AD in what was known as the Great Conspiracy. The Galatians then fled to NW Ireland.
 
I'll be glad to hear your thoughts.

Best regards,

Mike Hannan
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #87 on: December 06, 2011, 12:18:36 PM »

Here is what I am suggesting regarding the M222's in the Isles:

Around 400-500 BC, some Volcae Tectasages plus the Tolistobogii and Trocmi tribes left what may have been a DF23 hotspot in SW France around Toulouse and wound up around 280 BC in Anatolia. They became known as the Galatians and became M222 during their residence in Anatolia.

The Galatians provided troops to the Ptolemies and the Romans. One Legion, known to be Galatian, was the 22nd Deiotarian Legion.

I believe that this Legion was posted to Britain, perhaps in the 3rd Century and deserted the Wall in 367 AD in what was known as the Great Conspiracy. The Galatians then fled to NW Ireland.
 
I'll be glad to hear your thoughts.

Best regards,

Mike Hannan


There are many kinds of foolishness and everyone is free to choose its own.
One kind was that of David Faux (a good person otherwise) when thought that R-U152 was “Celt”, but there isn’t no R-U152 in Turkey where Galatians settled and lived, but its highest percentage is in North Italy where Galatians never were and the most ancient haplotypes are in Tuscany, where neither “Celts” never were.
Yours is also worst: Galatians would have been not R-U152 but R-M222, they would have fought in the Roman troops, settled in the British Isles and would have given life to a large part of the British/Irish men etc. etc.
But why there isn’t any R-M222 in Turkey? And less in Italy?
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2011, 09:32:40 PM »

Here is what I am suggesting regarding the M222's in the Isles:

Around 400-500 BC, some Volcae Tectasages plus the Tolistobogii and Trocmi tribes left what may have been a DF23 hotspot in SW France around Toulouse and wound up around 280 BC in Anatolia. They became known as the Galatians and became M222 during their residence in Anatolia.

The Galatians provided troops to the Ptolemies and the Romans. One Legion, known to be Galatian, was the 22nd Deiotarian Legion.

I believe that this Legion was posted to Britain, perhaps in the 3rd Century and deserted the Wall in 367 AD in what was known as the Great Conspiracy. The Galatians then fled to NW Ireland.
 
I'll be glad to hear your thoughts.

Best regards,
Mike Hannan

I have never known of Galacia. It may explain some genetic connections to some people. But I would expect to see some M222+ there in order to consider it a source .
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #89 on: December 06, 2011, 11:45:10 PM »

I'm a little hesitant to order DF23.
I thought I'd wait till some results started coming in
and then see how i compare with them.

I'm still a little lost after the L159 lab error. I wasn't really paying much attention to the newer snp's as they came about.

Is there a DF23 Project?..or will they join the M222 Project?







Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Mike23
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 19


« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2011, 08:32:36 AM »

Look in the L21 Plus Project and you will find a section devoted to DF23 with 9 members on Page3.

Regards,

Mike Hannan
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #91 on: December 07, 2011, 09:09:58 PM »

Here is what I am suggesting regarding the M222's in the Isles:

Around 400-500 BC, some Volcae Tectasages plus the Tolistobogii and Trocmi tribes left what may have been a DF23 hotspot in SW France around Toulouse and wound up around 280 BC in Anatolia. They became known as the Galatians and became M222 during their residence in Anatolia.

The Galatians provided troops to the Ptolemies and the Romans. One Legion, known to be Galatian, was the 22nd Deiotarian Legion.

I believe that this Legion was posted to Britain, perhaps in the 3rd Century and deserted the Wall in 367 AD in what was known as the Great Conspiracy. The Galatians then fled to NW Ireland.
 
I'll be glad to hear your thoughts.

Best regards,

Mike Hannan


Mike,

Northern France and the British Isles are positively loaded with L21. It is much more likely that DF23 either arose on the Continent not far from the Isles or somewhere in the Isles themselves. Then M222 arose from the DF23+ population in the British Isles somewhere.

No need to look to the faraway Galatians.

Logged

Mike23
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 19


« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2011, 09:29:39 PM »

Hello rms2,

My idea is that the DF 23's come from a hot spot in SW France around Toulouse. They did not leave SW France when the other DF 23 tribes that became known as the Galatians did.  Further I think that some of the DF 23's in SW France migrated up the coast and signed on with the Normans as soldiers or support and entered England, Wales and Ireland at that time.

On the L21''s I have no strong feelings on where they first appeared but I'd bet it was on the Mediterranean coast of France if you forced me to pick a place.

Regards,

Mike Hannan

Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #93 on: December 08, 2011, 09:42:50 PM »

Interesting theory. Do you have any real evidence to support it?
Logged

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2011, 12:20:37 PM »

... BTW, there is a Stephens in DF23*.   I just noticed I had him labeled as variety "14N-B-WSW" so he was supposed to be a "pre-M222" guy all along.  I labeled M222 as "14NW".

What's important about "14N-B-WSW" is that it is really short for something Ed Martin found a couple of years ago - what he calls the Wales South West England Modal (WESM.)
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ed_Martin_WalesSWEng/default.aspx

This looks like a firm brother cluster for M222....
Three people in the Wales South West England project now are DF23+ M222-. I renamed it 23-15-WSW.
The complete list of DF23+ M222- (or at least probably M222-) that I'm aware of are below.

f19920____ Stephens_________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-15-WSW_______ X3TH6___ Scotland
f156257___ Stephens_________________ R-L21/DF23___________________ 23-15-WSW_______ B25VE___ zzzUnkOrigin
f147036___ Vaughan__________________ R-L21/DF23___________________ 23-15-WSW_______ ___ Wales
f64716____ Vaughan__________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-15-WSW_______ CC95M___ zzzUnkOrigin
f41311____ Eaton____________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-1220_________ NW7PU___ England, South East, Kent
f207798___ Martin___________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-1421_________ PS5JD___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim
f63595____ Anglin___________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-2224_________ E5X7X___ Ireland, Munster, Co. Cork
f137235___ Caldwell_________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-2224_________ GDYM6___ Ireland
f119874___ Stanton?_________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-2224_________ PFGV7___ zzzUnkOrigin
fN1871____ Warren___________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-unassigned___ ZD5SS___ UK
f97610____ Kehoe____________________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-unassigned___ FSH3F___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Wexford
fN92711___ Le Provost_______________ R-L21/DF23*__________________ 23-unassigned___ ___ France, Basse-Normandie, Avranches


I wouldn't make too much of a variance calculation on just 11 haplotypes, but if it can be believed, DF23* is showing a higher linear marker variance than DF21, making DF23 the oldest of L21's subclades.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 12:26:04 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #95 on: December 19, 2011, 01:41:41 PM »

Cool.... Is there a Welsh name "Vaughan"? I know there is an Irish name Vaughan.

EDIT: I see that there is a Welsh name Vaughan and an Irish name Vaughan.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 04:23:48 PM by eochaidh » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
Jdean
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 678


« Reply #96 on: December 19, 2011, 08:22:45 PM »

Cool.... Is there a Welsh name "Vaughan"? I know there is an Irish name Vaughan.

EDIT: I see that there is a Welsh name Vaughan and an Irish name Vaughan.


Yep Vaughan is a name with a lot of Welsh history though it's not a 'typical' Welsh sounding name and I don't know it's etymology but I've often wondered if Vaux isn't connected to it. Probably not judging by the spread of the latter in the 1881 census :)
Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2011, 08:31:32 PM »

Cool.... Is there a Welsh name "Vaughan"? I know there is an Irish name Vaughan.

EDIT: I see that there is a Welsh name Vaughan and an Irish name Vaughan.


Yep Vaughan is a name with a lot of Welsh history though it's not a 'typical' Welsh sounding name and I don't know it's etymology but I've often wondered if Vaux isn't connected to it. Probably not judging by the spread of the latter in the 1881 census :)

I read that it's from the Welsh word for "small" or "little", fychan. In Irish, it's a form of MacMahon.
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
Jdean
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 678


« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2011, 09:13:48 PM »


I read that it's from the Welsh word for "small" or "little", fychan. In Irish, it's a form of MacMahon.

It would be rather nice for me to understand just a little Welsh (well I do know a few words, but it's nothing to take to a party)

According to Google the translation of 'fychan' is 'small' and the pronunciation would be about right but I wonder why they would have used an English spelling ?

I'm quite amused by this etymology though, it would appear that my family had a fascination with diminutive surnames, Child, Smallman and now Vaughan !!

I've also come across 14th C. documents concerning somebody bearing my name associated with a John Little in certain misdemeanours in Yorkshire as well :)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 09:20:46 PM by Jdean » Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #99 on: February 09, 2012, 07:54:28 PM »

Now there are three men of French origin who have been found to be DF23+ (M222-): one Norman, one from Poitou, and one from Languedoc.

So, did DF23 originate on the Continent?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 07:55:11 PM by rms2 » Logged

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.096 seconds with 19 queries.