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Mark Jost
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« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2011, 12:28:22 AM »

Congrats Miles! This is good news.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Heber
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« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2011, 05:53:48 AM »

Miles,

If you are not a decendent of Niall Noigiallacht you are perhaps a decendent of Eochaid Mugmedon (what a coincidence) or even  Conn Cetchathach his ancestor.
:).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eochaid_Mugmedon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conn_of_the_Hundred_Battles
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



eochaidh
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« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2011, 09:14:58 AM »

Miles,

If you are not a decendent of Niall Noigiallacht you are perhaps a decendent of Eochaid Mugmedon (what a coincidence) or even  Conn Cetchathach his ancestor.
:).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eochaid_Mugmedon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conn_of_the_Hundred_Battles

Since my last name is MacEochaidh/Eochadha and my Y results have always been from the north of Ireland and Scotland, I'm keen on any "Eochaidh" name from Ulster.

Even though my Dad was from Co. Wexford, it seems obvious that my line isn't a "Leinster" line. my closest match, Dougherty 64/67, has an Ulster surname that is found both M222+ and M222-  Many men from the north came to fight outside of The Pale.
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mtDNA: T2g
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2011, 05:22:05 PM »

I got a DF23+ (positive) result tonight! I'm DF23+ and M222-  I've always thought I was some sort of pre-M222+

How many of us are there? I so glad to finally belong to a smaller subclade! I haven't even belonged to an L21 cluster before this!

Thanks, Miles Kehoe
FTDNA #97610
Ysearch  fsh3f
I posted this response to Miles on another forum but I thought Richard and Alan might be interested:

This is interesting. You do have a lot of differences from the R-M222 modal. Here are the M222 signature STRs, listed in slowest to fastest except for the very, very fastest.

392=14 (Miles/L21=13)
448=19 (Miles/L21=18)
413a=21 (Miles=22 L21=23)
385=11,13 (Miles/L21=11,14)
390=25 (Miles=25, L21=24)
481=25 (Miles=24, L21=22)
464=15,16,16,17 (Miles/L21=15,15,17,17)

To me the above just demonstrates all the more that you were a very early branch off the pre-M222 lineage before M222 occurred.

In most cases, you line up more with the L21 modal. At 413a and 481 you are "in between." You are on target with M222 at 390. Even though 481 is a fast mutator, it seems to be very important to M222 identification. 481=25 is +3 of L21's modal while you are +2. I may be smoking something, but my hypothesis is then that 413a, 390 and 481 were the first STRs to mutate in the DF23 lineage. Essentially that means probably means either of two things in your searches:
1) Ignore GD's to the M222 modal. For the most part they will be misleading you as far as 392, 448, 385 and 464. Focus on 413a, 390 and 481 instead.
OR
2) DF23 is old enough that any R-L21* could have it and everyone needs to be checked.

The latter may be the case because 481 is fast and 413a isn't all that slow. I have your GD at 19 over 67 from the M222 modal and 14 to the L21 modal.

If I was to predict an ancestral haplotype for R-DF23, it'd only have a GD of 8/9 @67 to the L21 Modal whereas the M222 modal has a GD of about 16 to the L21 modal. To put very rough timeframes on that, if L21 is 4000* ybp, DF23 is about 3000 ybp and M222 is about 2000 ybp. All of those are very rough approximations.

* I use 4000 because several leading hobbyist folks like Tim Janzen, Anatole Klyosov, Marko Heinila and Ken Nordtvedt are getting that kind of time range.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 05:40:53 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2011, 06:33:26 PM »

I got a DF23+ (positive) result tonight! I'm DF23+ and M222-  I've always thought I was some sort of pre-M222+

How many of us are there? I so glad to finally belong to a smaller subclade! I haven't even belonged to an L21 cluster before this!

Thanks, Miles Kehoe
FTDNA #97610
Ysearch  fsh3f

Congrats Miles.  There was always a feeling that you were somewhere on the same branch as M222 and this proves it. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2011, 06:42:27 PM »

I got a DF23+ (positive) result tonight! I'm DF23+ and M222-  I've always thought I was some sort of pre-M222+

How many of us are there? I so glad to finally belong to a smaller subclade! I haven't even belonged to an L21 cluster before this!

Thanks, Miles Kehoe
FTDNA #97610
Ysearch  fsh3f
I posted this response to Miles on another forum but I thought Richard and Alan might be interested:

This is interesting. You do have a lot of differences from the R-M222 modal. Here are the M222 signature STRs, listed in slowest to fastest except for the very, very fastest.

392=14 (Miles/L21=13)
448=19 (Miles/L21=18)
413a=21 (Miles=22 L21=23)
385=11,13 (Miles/L21=11,14)
390=25 (Miles=25, L21=24)
481=25 (Miles=24, L21=22)
464=15,16,16,17 (Miles/L21=15,15,17,17)

To me the above just demonstrates all the more that you were a very early branch off the pre-M222 lineage before M222 occurred.

In most cases, you line up more with the L21 modal. At 413a and 481 you are "in between." You are on target with M222 at 390. Even though 481 is a fast mutator, it seems to be very important to M222 identification. 481=25 is +3 of L21's modal while you are +2. I may be smoking something, but my hypothesis is then that 413a, 390 and 481 were the first STRs to mutate in the DF23 lineage. Essentially that means probably means either of two things in your searches:
1) Ignore GD's to the M222 modal. For the most part they will be misleading you as far as 392, 448, 385 and 464. Focus on 413a, 390 and 481 instead.
OR
2) DF23 is old enough that any R-L21* could have it and everyone needs to be checked.

The latter may be the case because 481 is fast and 413a isn't all that slow. I have your GD at 19 over 67 from the M222 modal and 14 to the L21 modal.

If I was to predict an ancestral haplotype for R-DF23, it'd only have a GD of 8/9 @67 to the L21 Modal whereas the M222 modal has a GD of about 16 to the L21 modal. To put very rough timeframes on that, if L21 is 4000* ybp, DF23 is about 3000 ybp and M222 is about 2000 ybp. All of those are very rough approximations.

* I use 4000 because several leading hobbyist folks like Tim Janzen, Anatole Klyosov, Marko Heinila and Ken Nordtvedt are getting that kind of time range.

That makes perfect sense to me.  One thing though. Am I right in understanding that a number of new L21 subclades and clusters are known to be L23 negative and if you fit those then testing would be pointless?  Can anyone briefly list which clusters and clades and new SNPs are known to be L23 negative?
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eochaidh
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« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2011, 07:04:36 PM »

I got a DF23+ (positive) result tonight! I'm DF23+ and M222-  I've always thought I was some sort of pre-M222+

How many of us are there? I so glad to finally belong to a smaller subclade! I haven't even belonged to an L21 cluster before this!

Thanks, Miles Kehoe
FTDNA #97610
Ysearch  fsh3f

Congrats Miles.  There was always a feeling that you were somewhere on the same branch as M222 and this proves it. 
Thanks!
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Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
rms2
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« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2011, 07:33:14 PM »

Miles,

Congratulations! You are the first one in the new R-DF23 (M222-) category at the R-L21 Plus Project.

I hope I'll be joining you soon, but who knows?
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eochaidh
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« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2011, 07:51:40 PM »

I hope you join me soon as well. I love being part of a new subclade, but if I end up alone, yikes! Plus, I know you would really like to be DF23+

Good luck,  Miles
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Y-DNA: R1b DF23
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« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2011, 07:58:20 PM »

I hope you join me soon as well. I love being part of a new subclade, but if I end up alone, yikes! Plus, I know you would really like to be DF23+

Good luck,  Miles

Well, if I do get it, I'll be broadening out the DF23 variance, since my haplotype isn't anything like the typical M222 haplotype. My haplotype looks more like a U106 haplotype, with the exception of 492=13 (I have 12 there).

I'm just hoping against hope that I get a DF23+ result.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2011, 09:43:52 AM »

I hope you join me soon as well. I love being part of a new subclade, but if I end up alone, yikes! Plus, I know you would really like to be DF23+

Good luck,  Miles

Well, if I do get it, I'll be broadening out the DF23 variance, since my haplotype isn't anything like the typical M222 haplotype. My haplotype looks more like a U106 haplotype, with the exception of 492=13 (I have 12 there).

I'm just hoping against hope that I get a DF23+ result.
Since Miles' haplotype is closer to the L21 modal than to the M222 modal we may see a few surprises with DF23.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 09:44:59 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2011, 07:52:16 PM »

When I go to the Haplotype Data R-L21 all and run my little tests, here's what I get.

My favorite test is:
DYS390=25
DYS449=30
DYS481=24
Results= 15 M222+ , 8 M222- (including me DF23+)

The next simple test is:
DYS390=25
DYS481=24
Results= 25 M222+, 8 L513+, 59 M222- (including me DF23+)

Intersting to note that there are no other SNPs in the results. M222+, L513+, DF23+ and L21*, that's it. I know that simply running two or three marker values can't tell us much, but it is odd how these two or three marker values can exclude all other sunbclades. Just running two eliminates all but M222+, L513+ and me DF23+. Might be something there.

I've been doing these test for a long while.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 11:51:31 PM by eochaidh » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
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eochaidh
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« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2011, 07:46:26 PM »

Two more DF23+, M222- results.
Anglin 63595
Caldwell 137235

They are more similar to each other than to me. And more similar to M222+

It seems that DYS413a and DYS481 are the keys markers. I'd also say DYS449 might play a part.

Miles Kehoe (The other DF23+, M222-)
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Y-DNA: R1b DF23
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rms2
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« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2011, 09:48:24 PM »

Yep, and I got a big goose egg. :(

Ah, well. The Lord must be reserving the subclade of the X-Men or the Justice League for me, whatever it is. ;-)

L21 is about as close to M222 as I get.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2011, 10:42:59 PM »

Sorry to hear, Rich... Maybe that new match you got recently will lead to many good things.

All I can say is I've never belonged to any cluster or small subclade until now, and it came out of nowhere... of course by next year it may be huge and meaningless  :)
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Y-DNA: R1b DF23
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rms2
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« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2011, 11:13:50 PM »

Sorry to hear, Rich... Maybe that new match you got recently will lead to many good things.

All I can say is I've never belonged to any cluster or small subclade until now, and it came out of nowhere... of course by next year it may be huge and meaningless  :)

I think you will find DF23 characterizes a particularly barbarous band of Celtic headhunters, like the "Seal People" in the film The Eagle. ;-)
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eochaidh
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« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2011, 12:21:27 AM »



I think you will find DF23 characterizes a particularly barbarous band of Celtic headhunters, like the "Seal People" in the film The Eagle. ;-)
[/quote]

I can only hope  :)
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« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2011, 08:35:23 PM »

The R-DF23 (M222-) category has grown quite a bit this evening.

Thus far, it's all British Isles and British Isles surname stuff.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2011, 09:23:15 PM »

The R-DF23 (M222-) category has grown quite a bit this evening.

Thus far, it's all British Isles and British Isles surname stuff.
I see that, it looks like DF23+, M222- is up to 8 members. All of the new guys have DYS481=24 or greater.

I'm interested in the Martin from Co. Antrim b. 1824. I have a maternal great, great grandmother, Sarah Martin from Co. Antrim. The surname Martin is pretty popular there, but it's interesting to think I might have another DF23+ line, though.
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OConnor
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« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2011, 05:14:56 AM »

My furthest known Maternal ancestor was Jessie Martin, Isle of Skye, Scotland.
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


rayjenkins
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« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2011, 11:08:36 PM »

The parents of Charles James Moore Martin b1824 County Antrim were James Martin and Mary Moore.
James Martin was shown to be a Captain in the infantry on 2  Cheshire UK marriage certs dated 1849 and 1852. at this point I have no other info
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2011, 12:36:39 AM »

The R-DF23 (M222-) category has grown quite a bit this evening.

Thus far, it's all British Isles and British Isles surname stuff.
I see that, it looks like DF23+, M222- is up to 8 members. All of the new guys have DYS481=24 or greater. ...

As of now there is only one common off-modal (of L21) for DF23* that is also shared with M222.  It is being on the high side of 481, usually 24 or higher.

Vince V called this over a year ago when I tried to do a "pre-M222" search. He told me at the time that 481 was the one marker that made M222 unique.  There are other signature markers but the high 481 value is the one thing that is really consistent in M222.

BTW, there is a Stephens in DF23*.   I just noticed I had him labeled as variety "14N-B-WSW" so he was supposed to be a "pre-M222" guy all along.  I labeled M222 as "14NW".

What's important about "14N-B-WSW" is that it is really short for something Ed Martin found a couple of years ago - what he calls the Wales South West England Modal (WESM.)
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ed_Martin_WalesSWEng/default.aspx

This looks like a firm brother cluster for M222.   Does a La Tena theory for M222 hold up with this?  WESM/WSW is Wales/SW England oriented.  I guess one of the Welsh royal lines were "men from the north". I understand that meant from north of Britain.  
I think odds of M222 originating in Britain vs Ireland are increasing (although Ireland is still a if not the leading candidate.)   I don't see how the German/La Tene thing will work unless we find DF23* among the L21* folks there.


« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 09:35:14 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2011, 03:04:14 PM »

The R-DF23 (M222-) category has grown quite a bit this evening.

Thus far, it's all British Isles and British Isles surname stuff.
I see that, it looks like DF23+, M222- is up to 8 members. All of the new guys have DYS481=24 or greater. ...

As of now there is only common off-modal (of L21) for DF23* that is also shared with M222.  It is being on the high side of 481, usually 24 or higher.

Vince V called this over a year ago when I tried to do a "pre-M222" search. He told me at the time that 481 was the one marker that made M222 unique.  There are other signature markers but the high 481 value is the one thing that is really consistent in M222.

BTW, there is a Stephens in DF23*.   I just noticed I had him labeled as variety "14N-B-WSW" so he was supposed to be a "pre-M222" guy all along.  I labeled M222 as "14NW".

What's important about "14N-B-WSW" is that it is really short for something Ed Martin found a couple of years ago - what he calls the Wales South West England Modal (WESM.)
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ed_Martin_WalesSWEng/default.aspx

This looks like a firm brother cluster for M222.   Does a La Tena theory for M222 hold up with this?  WESM/WSW is Wales/SW England oriented.  I guess one of the Welsh royal lines were "men from the north". I understand that meant from north of Britain.  
I think odds of M222 originating in Britain vs Ireland are increasing (although Ireland is still a if not the leading candidate.)   I don't see how the German/La Tene thing will work unless we find DF23* among the L21* folks there.




One thing that springs to mind is Devon=Dumonia=Fir Domnain.  I have pointed out before that there were Fir Domnain in Mayo who were apparently seen as a military crack tribe of Connaught in the Ulster Cycle (Ferdia was one of them).  I had previous wondered if they related to the Damnoni of SW Scotland.  Maybe there was a link between all three.
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rms2
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« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2011, 08:03:37 PM »

Wales and SW England were also heavily settled by Irish during the post-Roman period. Some of them settled there during the Roman period itself and were commissioned by the Romans to keep their fellow Irish out.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2011, 07:30:57 PM »

Please don't respond to spammers. You just create a permanent post for their mischief, even after I have deleted the original. I don't normally delete real users' posts unless they're duplicates or they asked to have them deleted.



Sorry, I didn't realize it was a problem. I deleted my posts. Just fooling around...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 07:31:59 PM by eochaidh » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
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