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Author Topic: DF23  (Read 9874 times)
rms2
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« on: September 19, 2011, 08:03:46 PM »

I thought I would start a thread on this one, which came up over in that thread about DF21. DF23 is supposed to be between L21 and M222, so I for one am really interested in it. I came up negative for DF21, so I am hoping for a positive result on DF23 when it becomes available from FTDNA.

I got a reply from FTDNA back on 31 August saying that Thomas Krahn was working on DF23 and should have an update in about three weeks. In a couple of days I'm going to send FTDNA another email, because I see DF23 is not yet available.

I hope they get the test up and running soon!

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eochaidh
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 04:10:22 PM »

I heard today that FTDNA is getting the primers this week to test DF23. Hopefully it all goes well and they'll be ready for public testing within the next few weeks!

I'm still waiting for my DF21 results, but I'm expecting to be found negative. If not, I'll be the only DF21 with a value of 24 at DYS481, and I'll be out of "L21*" !
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Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
rms2
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 06:50:56 PM »

Well, I'm hoping we both are DF23+. How about that? ;-)

Honestly, I'll be disappointed if I'm not, but I'll deal with it if that's the case, I guess.

It will be interesting to see how DF23 pans out geographically. I predict it will sell like hotcakes.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 07:37:21 PM »

Here is the STRs that was present for analysis from the secret Researcher. I added the modal to compare with

   393   390   19   391   385a   385b   439   389i   392   389ii-i   437   448   GataH4   456   438   DYS635
L21   13   24   14   11   11   14   12   13   13   16   15   19   11   16   12   23
NA12154   14   24   14   13   11   14   11   13   14   15   15   19   11   17   12   23
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2011, 07:45:23 PM »

I forgot to add the main paper and the sup data file link

He M, Gitschier J, Zerjal T, de Knijff P, Tyler-Smith C, et al. 2009 Geographical Affinities of the HapMap Samples. PLoS ONE 4(3): e4684. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0004684

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004684

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004684#s5
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 07:47:07 PM by mjost » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
eochaidh
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2011, 09:32:49 PM »

Well, I'm hoping we both are DF23+. How about that? ;-)


I like that! I hope the same for you!
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2011, 08:44:27 AM »

Here is the STRs that was present for analysis from the secret Researcher. I added the modal to compare with

   393   390   19   391   385a   385b   439   389i   392   389ii-i   437   448   GataH4   456   438   DYS635
L21   13   24   14   11   11   14   12   13   13   16   15   19   11   16   12   23
NA12154   14   24   14   13   11   14   11   13   14   15   15   19   11   17   12   23


I'm confused, Mark. Is that "NA12154" haplotype DF23+?

And can you perhaps point out the relevant parts of the papers at the links you posted?
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2011, 10:16:21 AM »


Yes, "NA12154" haplotype DF23+.

Here is the link to GregRM's post which he states:

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/15595-new-snp-for-l21-df23-upstream-of-m222/page__view__findpost__p__261341

"I'm pleased to convey news that the researcher who has been discovering the Y-SNPs in the DF series has confirmed yet another new SNP under L21, named DF23. It looks like DF23 will be upstream of M222 (i.e. some L21* individuals will be DF23+, and all M222+ individuals will be DF23+). ... We were able to identify this as a candidate using the combination of 1000 Genomes Project data and the whole-genome data of Jay Flatley (CEO of Illumina) ...

Our investigation of the data showed a couple of candidate SNPs shared by both Jay Flatley (who we found to be M222+) and NA12154 (an anonymous Utahn in the "CEU" population group; L21+, M222-) from the 1000 Genomes Project data.

The researcher developed a set of primers to test for one of these candidates, DF23, and confirmed that it was genuine through conventional Sanger/capillary sequencing of a M222+ sample (turned out DF23+) and a L21+/M222- sample (DF23-).  ...

Some limited STR data for NA12154 is available from a paper..."
 
This paper is through The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute points out that CEU samples are better described as being of Western European ancestry than of Northern European ancestry.

GregRM pointed out (for those interested) that the Supp has STR data that the Researcher pointed out was available for the unknown person that has the new SNP that he discovered.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2011, 10:23:47 AM »

Quote
Our investigation of the data showed a couple of candidate SNPs shared by both Jay Flatley (who we found to be M222+) and NA12154 (an anonymous Utahn in the "CEU" population group; L21+, M222-) from the 1000 Genomes Project data.

The researcher developed a set of primers to test for one of these candidates, DF23, and confirmed that it was genuine through conventional Sanger/capillary sequencing of a M222+ sample (turned out DF23+) and a L21+/M222- sample (DF23-).  ...

I don't know if this well appreciated across R1b folks, but we have tremendous thanks to go out to people like GregRM, RRocca, David Reynolds, Kirsten Saxe, etc. I am missing some names but there is also the anonymous researcher to whom we owe a great deal to. I've got my suspicions but there are people digging into a lot of raw data in the human genome scanning projects and WTY to identify SNPs.  Many times these people are working outside their own haplogroups.

Thanks!

Here is GregRM's speculative depiction of some of the new SNP discoveries in the R-L21 tree:
http://www.box.net/shared/66415pac2c5gmrc8z5re
Even though this is a little ahead of the Krahn's draft tree it is still a bit behind. For example we now know Z255 is upstream of both L144 and L159.2. DF21 is also found apparently above P314.2.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 10:31:13 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
NealtheRed
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2011, 05:19:07 PM »

I apologize for my apparent ignorance, but does DF23 appear to be promising for L21* folks?
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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eochaidh
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2011, 06:08:21 PM »

DF23 holds promise for those L21* guys who have tested negative for everything else and don't belong to any haplotype group. Since it is upstream of M222+ it also holds promise for people like me who have some similarities to M222+
DYS390=25, DYS449=30, DYS481=24, plus I show up near or next to M222+ quite often on charts and graphs.
When you belong to no group and have tested negative for everything, any possible SNP holds promise!
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2011, 06:23:53 PM »

It's promising to me, too, even though my haplotype is not even close to the "Niall" thingy, simply because I would like to be on the same branch as M222. That just seems cool to me.

I need to move a step beyond L21, and DF23 seems like a good way to go.

I'll probably be negative for it, but what the heck?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 06:24:17 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2011, 11:33:07 PM »

.... I need to move a step beyond L21, and DF23 seems like a good way to go. ..
You might want to watch Z255 or Z245 as well.
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 03:58:05 AM »

.... I need to move a step beyond L21, and DF23 seems like a good way to go. ..
You might want to watch Z255 or Z245 as well.


Did you mean to say Z254 (apparently upstream of Z255) ?

Z245 is currently thought to be equivalent to L21 & L459 though testing is limited.
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2011, 06:32:35 AM »

.... I need to move a step beyond L21, and DF23 seems like a good way to go. ..
You might want to watch Z255 or Z245 as well.


Did you mean to say Z254 (apparently upstream of Z255) ?

Z245 is currently thought to be equivalent to L21 & L459 though testing is limited.

No, I meant Z245.

Quote from: David Reynolds
Yes, so far all of the R-L21 samples tests are Z245+. But it isn't a large number of data points, so I would say it is premature to write Z245 off as simply being equivalent to L21.

I think Z245 could be a large portion of L21* but not necessarily all. It's too early to write it off as being a equivalent to L21. Less than a handful of people have been tested for Z245.

Though I concede that L459 might be equivalent to L21 we are writing it off too soon as well.  Only about 30 people have tested for L459. There are several thousand L21* people who have not tested for L459.
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Jdean
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2011, 07:53:16 AM »


Quote from: David Reynolds
Yes, so far all of the R-L21 samples tests are Z245+. But it isn't a large number of data points, so I would say it is premature to write Z245 off as simply being equivalent to L21.

I think Z245 could be a large portion of L21* but not necessarily all. It's too early to write it off as being a equivalent to L21. Less than a handful of people have been tested for Z245.

Though I concede that L459 might be equivalent to L21 we are writing it off too soon as well.  Only about 30 people have tested for L459. There are several thousand L21* people who have not tested for L459.

As it happens I've been toying with the idea of ordering Z245, I hold little hope of belonging to what's left of the recognised downstream SNPs so feel my best chance lies with the ones thought to be close to L21 itself.
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2011, 08:38:58 AM »


Quote from: David Reynolds
Yes, so far all of the R-L21 samples tests are Z245+. But it isn't a large number of data points, so I would say it is premature to write Z245 off as simply being equivalent to L21.

I think Z245 could be a large portion of L21* but not necessarily all. It's too early to write it off as being a equivalent to L21. Less than a handful of people have been tested for Z245.

Though I concede that L459 might be equivalent to L21 we are writing it off too soon as well.  Only about 30 people have tested for L459. There are several thousand L21* people who have not tested for L459.

As it happens I've been toying with the idea of ordering Z245, I hold little hope of belonging to what's left of the recognised downstream SNPs so feel my best chance lies with the ones thought to be close to L21 itself.
It might be that R-L21+ Z245- people (or R-L21+ L459-) are small select groups. That doesn't mean you are closely related but at least you can eliminate thousands of others very quickly wit these SNP tests.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
rms2
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2011, 01:30:42 PM »

.... I need to move a step beyond L21, and DF23 seems like a good way to go. ..
You might want to watch Z255 or Z245 as well.

Thanks for the heads up. So many new SNPs have come down the pike lately, it's hard to know north from south.

My dna testing budget and my wife's patience are both limited, so I have to be choosy. I want to test for DF23 because that one seems glamorous to me, so I will pay for it. I have no idea whether or not I have much of a chance of being positive for it - but it is cool, being the daddy of M222 and all. ;-)

The others I have to adopt a wait and see attitude on. I will only pay for those I think I might have a chance with (unless FTDNA suddenly lumps a whole bunch of them into its Deep Clade and the price becomes right).
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 01:31:24 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2011, 02:23:21 PM »

.... I need to move a step beyond L21, and DF23 seems like a good way to go. ..
You might want to watch Z255 or Z245 as well.

Thanks for the heads up. So many new SNPs have come down the pike lately, it's hard to know north from south.

My dna testing budget and my wife's patience are both limited, so I have to be choosy. I want to test for DF23 because that one seems glamorous to me, so I will pay for it. I have no idea whether or not I have much of a chance of being positive for it - but it is cool, being the daddy of M222 and all. ;-)

The others I have to adopt a wait and see attitude on. I will only pay for those I think I might have a chance with (unless FTDNA suddenly lumps a whole bunch of them into its Deep Clade and the price becomes right).
Yes, I know what you mean.  About a year ago I bit off the "L21 SNP extended package" for $119 or something like that, which is on top of the old deep clade test I took and the following P312 and L21 singletons.
After taking a big breadth I ordered a couple for singletons early this year and got lucky on one.

I kept telling myself I was at least finding out where I didn't fit and R-L21* kept getting smaller and smaller. We still probably have another round of WTY and my some more human genome projects before R-L21* really starts to squeeze down like P312* is.

Fortunately, the human genome work, volunteer researchers, Thomas Krahn and WTY round 2 all converged just right for me, but I paid my way to get there. I'm just thankful of the other crazies who also paid for lots of testing, WTY's, etc. that are part of what's needed for progress.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2011, 03:17:56 PM »

To test or not to test.  If one is looking for an old, wide impact SNP then you must test.  Look at L459 and DF21; no way to predict a positive, at least early in the game.  If you are looking for a recent SNP that matches your “variety” then a positive is almost a foregone conclusion, especially in the case of surname and location match.  I think the more interesting historical conclusions are those drawn from older and wider impact SNPs.  So the answer is to test wisely; but the “nature of the beast” is going to lead to at least some negative results.  The mystery is the attraction.
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Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

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Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


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« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2011, 08:06:12 PM »

Still no DF23 test from FTDNA. Sigh . . .
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cmblandford
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« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2011, 07:32:15 PM »

Quote
I hope they get the test up and running soon!

No test yet on FTDNA
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Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

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Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


Mark Jost
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« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2011, 11:11:58 AM »

The DF23 SNP is up and available for order a short time ago. Just placed my order.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2011, 06:31:40 PM »

The DF23 SNP is up and available for order a short time ago. Just placed my order.


Thanks, Mark. I'm going to order it, too.

This is one I am hoping for a positive result on, but, since that is the case . . . well, we'll see.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 06:32:32 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2011, 07:56:33 PM »

The DF23 SNP is up and available for order a short time ago. Just placed my order.


Thanks, Mark. I'm going to order it, too.

This is one I am hoping for a positive result on, but, since that is the case . . . well, we'll see.

Good luck, guys.  Time for a break-through!
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
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