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Author Topic: Tocharian Signature R1b?  (Read 1497 times)
rms2
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« on: September 16, 2011, 07:35:41 PM »

Have you all seen Dienekes' article in which he argues that R1b is the genuine Tocharian y-dna signature?

It's here.

He starts by asserting that there is no evidence that the famous Tarim mummies were Tocharians.

You also need to check out the video here. (Scroll down to the second video, the talk by Mallory.)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 07:39:48 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2011, 08:04:13 PM »

Have you all seen Dienekes' article in which he argues that R1b is the genuine Tocharian y-dna signature?

It's here.

He starts by asserting that there is no evidence that the famous Tarim mummies were Tocharians.

You also need to check out the video here. (Scroll down to the second video, the talk by Mallory.)

R1b-M269 shows up at about 3% on average in Uyghurs.  M73 about the same.  I disagree about there being no connection between Tocharian and Tarim basin mummies.  I will concede there is no direct link as the two events are chronologically seperate by almost 2000 years.  The Afanseivo (sp?) culture starting east in 3700 BC as a vector for Tocharian and ultimately caucasian mummies is the most logical explanation I've seen.  A small amount of R1b probably came from the Caucasus at some point before 3700.  Most of it stayed around the Urals in the form of L23 as seen in Myres' data and a minority went east and were eventually absorbed by Turkic speaking Uyghurs.  If there were no significant L23 in the Urals I could see where a southern only route would be plausible.  However, this is not the case.
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2011, 08:31:59 PM »

Where is the real evidence that there is a direct connection between Afanasievo and the Tocharians?

Did you watch Mallory's lecture?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 08:32:33 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2011, 11:24:25 PM »

Where is the real evidence that there is a direct connection between Afanasievo and the Tocharians?

Did you watch Mallory's lecture?

I don't think there is a "smoking gun" in the sense of written Tocharian found in Afanasievo sites.  However, the strongest support thus far is:

1) "Solar signs" painted in late Afanasievo sites in the Altai (c. 2500) are identical to tattoos or markings found on Tarim mummies.  Similiar headdresses were also found in Afanasievo and Tarim burials.

2) Repin and Yamnaya materials/goods found in Afanasievo graves.  The Repin people who formed Afanasievo in the Altai was not a one time event.  Links between the western steppe with the Altai continued throughout the Yamnaya period.

3) Physical anthropology is similiar between Repin, Yamnaya, Afanasievo, and Tarim.  There is a chart in Mallory's book, though I can't find my copy right now.

4) Tocharian /Tarim burials have the same rituals: flexed legs, position on one side, ochre present, etc.

I didn't watch the video. Was there anything new mentioned?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2011, 11:36:27 PM »

Where is the real evidence that there is a direct connection between Afanasievo and the Tocharians?

Did you watch Mallory's lecture?

It is interesting to note that while the steppe people did not have words for cereal or pig, the Tocharians did.

Also, the R1a1a could have been in the Tarim area before the arrival of Tocharians from Northern Iran. R1b is found in this area, moves on along the Silk Road, and mixes with the previous population (consisting of west and east Eurasian types).

« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 11:37:49 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2011, 11:57:52 PM »

Where is the real evidence that there is a direct connection between Afanasievo and the Tocharians?

Did you watch Mallory's lecture?

It is interesting to note that while the steppe people did not have words for cereal or pig, the Tocharians did.

Also, the R1a1a could have been in the Tarim area before the arrival of Tocharians from Northern Iran. R1b is found in this area, moves on along the Silk Road, and mixes with the previous population (consisting of west and east Eurasian types).

I think it's possible that whatever version of proto-Tocharian arrived in the Tarim basin from Afanasievo did not have cereal and pig as you mention.  I agree it arrived from a southern agricultural influence, though not necessarily brought with R1b. 
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2011, 12:47:07 AM »

Where is the real evidence that there is a direct connection between Afanasievo and the Tocharians?

Did you watch Mallory's lecture?

It is interesting to note that while the steppe people did not have words for cereal or pig, the Tocharians did.

Also, the R1a1a could have been in the Tarim area before the arrival of Tocharians from Northern Iran. R1b is found in this area, moves on along the Silk Road, and mixes with the previous population (consisting of west and east Eurasian types).

I think it's possible that whatever version of proto-Tocharian arrived in the Tarim basin from Afanasievo did not have cereal and pig as you mention.  I agree it arrived from a southern agricultural influence, though not necessarily brought with R1b. 


I think that R1b can be the only contender for being Tocharian at that point, since it is found in Northern Iran and the Transcaucasus. Dienekes points out that maybe some J2 is involved too.
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2011, 01:36:22 AM »

Where is the real evidence that there is a direct connection between Afanasievo and the Tocharians?

Did you watch Mallory's lecture?

It is interesting to note that while the steppe people did not have words for cereal or pig, the Tocharians did.

Also, the R1a1a could have been in the Tarim area before the arrival of Tocharians from Northern Iran. R1b is found in this area, moves on along the Silk Road, and mixes with the previous population (consisting of west and east Eurasian types).

I think it's possible that whatever version of proto-Tocharian arrived in the Tarim basin from Afanasievo did not have cereal and pig as you mention.  I agree it arrived from a southern agricultural influence, though not necessarily brought with R1b. 


I think that R1b can be the only contender for being Tocharian at that point, since it is found in Northern Iran and the Transcaucasus. Dienekes points out that maybe some J2 is involved too.

I watched the Mallory video and he showed Renfrew's Tocharian moving out of Anatolia into SE Europe, then over to the steppe and to Asia.  This creates a large time gap for Tocharian continuity until written Tocharian is confirmed for the 8th century.  Another problem is that the Tripolye culture never crossed the Dnieper in terms of settlement.  So, they would have to somehow "hand-off" proto-Tocharian including words for pigs and cereal to the Repin people to carry it east.  Not impossible, but I see no solid evidence of Tocharian moving northeast out of Iran which I believe Dienekes was supporting.  Unless I missed it somehwere, even Renfrew maintains a movement through SE Europe not east across the Zagros for Tocharian.

As for R1b, I agree that M269 comes from SW Asia including Iran.  I think it's possible it went through the Caucasus and to the Urals (L23) and probably got mixed in with Repin people along the way.  However, wiithout variance on Uralic L23, I remain open to other options.  Straight from Iran is also an option, really at many times throughout history and not just as a carrier for a neolithic Tocharian.  Where it is more telling is with M73.  Myres found 0 in Iran, yet it is present in Uyghurs around 2% on average in the Zhong paper.  It was found in Turkey at 1.1%, but higher in the north Caucasus and Bashkirs (near Urals) at about 2-3%, though one Bashkir sample came in at 23%.  A northern link is more likely on dna grounds especially when we consider R1a.
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2011, 07:40:31 AM »

Where is the real evidence that there is a direct connection between Afanasievo and the Tocharians?

Did you watch Mallory's lecture?

I don't think there is a "smoking gun" in the sense of written Tocharian found in Afanasievo sites.  However, the strongest support thus far is:

1) "Solar signs" painted in late Afanasievo sites in the Altai (c. 2500) are identical to tattoos or markings found on Tarim mummies.  Similiar headdresses were also found in Afanasievo and Tarim burials.

2) Repin and Yamnaya materials/goods found in Afanasievo graves.  The Repin people who formed Afanasievo in the Altai was not a one time event.  Links between the western steppe with the Altai continued throughout the Yamnaya period.

3) Physical anthropology is similiar between Repin, Yamnaya, Afanasievo, and Tarim.  There is a chart in Mallory's book, though I can't find my copy right now.

4) Tocharian /Tarim burials have the same rituals: flexed legs, position on one side, ochre present, etc.

I didn't watch the video. Was there anything new mentioned?


I think you are assuming the Tarim mummies spoke Tocharian  and then making connections between them and the Afanasievo culture.

I don't know the answer, but I think Dienekes might be right simply because Tocharian was a centum IE language.

We'll probably never know unless an actual , indisputably Tocharian settlement is found and y-dna recovered from among its remains.
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2011, 11:13:32 AM »

Yes, there is still alot of speculation here.  Other than the words for cereal and pig in Tocharian, I just don't see a southern archaeological trail or otherwise demonstrated.  At least with the northern steppe model, we can piece together a series of observed archaeological events and materials.  Hopefully, if we get some Yamnaya results next year, we may be closer to understanding more about the Tocharian split.
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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2011, 07:47:00 AM »

I saw some thing about the tcharians years ago but I thought the studies got stopped by political tantrums Is the stuff you refer to new?
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2011, 07:50:02 AM »

I just happened upon a recent article on Dienekes' blog about the Tocharians. Since he came to the conclusion that the original Tocharians were mostly R1b (of some kind), I thought it might be interesting to bring up.

There's a link to the article in the post that started this thread. Also check out the videos of the lectures by Colin Renfrew and James Mallory.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 07:50:25 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2011, 02:27:44 PM »

Have you all seen Dienekes' article in which he argues that R1b is the genuine Tocharian y-dna signature?

It's here.

He starts by asserting that there is no evidence that the famous Tarim mummies were Tocharians.

You also need to check out the video here. (Scroll down to the second video, the talk by Mallory.)

Is there a video of David Anthony's presentation later in the day? .. as referenced to by Mallory.  It would have been really neat to have the two in a panel discussion.  Mallory was obviously keenly aware of IE from the Steppes/later vs IE from Anatolia/earlier pros and cons.  As he said he almost subtitled it the "one wheel, few horses" presentation. LOL
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 02:28:13 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2011, 06:23:06 PM »

If there is, I haven't seen it. I would certainly like to hear Anthony speak.
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