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Author Topic: U152 and Turkic-Speaking Peoples  (Read 873 times)
rms2
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« on: September 05, 2011, 08:04:49 AM »

Maybe someone has commented on this already, but did you notice the sample in Busby from northeast of Ufa in the Russian Federation? It looks like the sample location is still in Bashkortostan in the Urals.

It's the one at latitude 55.6 longitude 57 (entry #61) here (latitude and longitude are reversed in Busby's Excel chart):

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.DC1/rspb20111044supp2.xls

Anyway, out of a sample of 70, U152 was 71.4%!

I am assuming those were Bashkirs.

I know from the R-P312 and Subclades Project that there is also at least one Kipchak tribesman from Kazakhstan who is U152+ (R-L2, actually).

So, what is the connection between U152 and Turkic-speaking peoples?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 09:12:22 AM »

Ask Anatole Klyosov, who thinks that we all R-something are Turks! Anyway we knew those Bashkirs, but the R-U152-s are pretty all of the same haplotype, then more than the origin of R, some R (I’d bet he was Italian) who passed his holidays there.
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Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2011, 09:30:56 AM »

Geneticists call it founder effect, we say “un gallo nel pollaio” (to be .... of the walk).
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 09:32:11 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2011, 12:15:24 PM »

I think Myres found the variance to be relatively low with Baskkir U152.  My guess is that they were "Europeans" who were "Turkicized" in the Dark-Middle ages.  The Goths were in the Crimean/North Black sea region not too long before the Turks arrived and the Bashkirs possibly have an origin there before they settled around the Urals.   Even Celtic speakers reached western Ukraine and Anatolia (with U152?), so I don't think any eastern U152 would be from actual Turks from the Altai region.  The Kazakh seems to be an outlier, but also probably from a western source.
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 08:10:54 PM »

It's more than a little odd. Even if it were just the Bashkirs, it would be strange, but add in the Kipchak fellow, and it is really weird. By the way, I am the one who recruited the Kipchak guy for testing originally, with the help of the head of the Kazakhstan DNA Project. I was hoping at the time he would be P312+, but his Deep Clade went a little further than that.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 08:11:18 PM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 11:02:13 PM »

Certainly if these Bashkirs and the Kipchaks and others were R-U152*, I too would mind, but the 1000 Genomes Projects has found, out of 4, 3 Tuscans and 1 British (of course of probably immigration from Italy: ancient or during the Roman Empire), then these Eastern R-U152-s must be explained otherwise.

Do you know what does Anatole Klyosov write, the theorist of the Turkish origin of R?
That Celts migrated to West Europe from Russian plane during the 5th century BC.

Risum teneas?
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Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2011, 12:43:47 AM »

"Second, R1b1 is not the same as R, and R1b1 is absent in a great many Altaic speaking populations. The fact that R1b1 is found in some Turkic populations does not mean that it goes up to the Proto-Altaic population; indeed the largely Mongoloid character of that population and the absence of R1b1 in most of its extant branches argue strongly against it. So, you have trouble getting R1b1 to Proto-Altaic, let alone whatever hypothetical "Erbin" might have been spoken in even more ancient times in inner Asia". (Dienekes on his blog).
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2011, 08:13:37 AM »

Ciao Gioiello,
we have to await the new result for Z36 etc.. in U152+..

Yesterday..the U152 adm. write ..

New orders since the newsletter was sent:

Z49: 21
Z36: 11
Z56: 4
L671: 3
L654: 2
L141: 2
Z291: 2
Z37: 2
Z52: 2
L2: 1
Z54: 1
Z70: 1
Z38: 1
Z143: 1
S42: 1
S47: 1

Total: 56 ...and counting

S.
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