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Author Topic: Scotland: Data from the Busby Study  (Read 5905 times)
authun
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« Reply #50 on: September 08, 2011, 05:57:50 AM »

Is it reasonable that P312 roamed throughout western Europe during the late Neolithic or Bronze Age, while U106, which was probably born about the same time and place, confined itself exclusively to Scandinavia and northern Germany until the migration period?

I thought I'd bring the topic of 'Celtic Fields' to your attention. This field system gets its name from British Archaeology and spans the late bronze age and early roman period. However, it is widespread in northern europe, from Belgium, through the Netherlands, northern Germany, Jutland, Skane in Sweden and on the island of Gotland. The fields are quadrilangular or rectilangular in shape and delineated by an earthen bank. They are turning up in increasing numbers with the use of aerial photography. The best preserved examples exist where the fields were later given up to pasture and the banks have not been subsequently ploughed out. Below are some examples:

In Germany, illustration of field type and aerial photo ploughed out celtic fields:
http://www.cpt.co.uk/landscape/CFgermany.jpg

In England:
http://resourcesforhistory.com/Images/photos/celtic_farming/Barbury_Celtic_Fields.jpg

Netherlands:
http://www.cpt.co.uk/landscape/CFnetherlands.jpg

Denmark:
http://www.cpt.co.uk/landscape/CFdenmark.gif

Denmark, ploughed out but visible:
http://www.cpt.co.uk/landscape/CFdenmark2.gif

Gotland, archaeological plan:
http://www.cpt.co.uk/landscape/CFgotland.gif

The celtic field system has more or less disappeared by the time of the migration period. The question is therefore, what can explain the geographic spread of this agricultural practice? On the continent, this field system more or less coincides with the distribution of farmhouses which include integral byres whereas these do not exist in Britain. However, Britain's warmer climate meant that cattle stalling in general was not as important as they could be outwintered for much longer periods.

Celtic Fields are not to be confused with Céide Fields which are older and which used stone walls.

best
authun
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 06:01:43 AM by authun » Logged
Heber
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« Reply #51 on: September 08, 2011, 11:27:56 AM »

Authun,

It is interesting you mentioned The Ceide Fields.

http://www.ceidefields.com/home.html

If these farmers date from 6,000 BCE, and they practiced agriculture, could they have been M269 or a decendant and if so how did they get there so early?
Does Busby's revised data support an higher diversity, older age for M269 in Ireland similar to that of Anatolia?

Gerard
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Heber


 
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Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



OConnor
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« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2011, 11:53:11 AM »

I have been to Ceide Fields.
The age estimate is aprox. 5,500 ybp. Is that out of range with the continental farming practices you mentioned?

Perhaps they had an abundance of rock? what else do you do with unwanted rock in a field besides place it around the parimeter of the field, or use it to build something. I have seen some very rocky places in Ireland's n/w quarter.

Even here in Eastern Canada farm fields edges are piled with unwanted stones and debris. But out west where the big grain fields are there are not so many stones.
Could we not be the same basic people.



vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

http://www.museumsofmayo.com/ceide.htm

The Céide Fields are the oldest known field systems in the world, over five and a half millennia old. It is a unique Neolithic landscape of world importance, which has changed our perception of our Stone Age ancestors. The remains of stone field walls, houses and megalithic tombs are preserved beneath a blanket of peat over several square miles. They tell a story of the everyday lives of a farming people, their organized society, their highly developed spiritual beliefs, and their struggle against a changing environment beyond their control.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 11:58:48 AM by OConnor » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2011, 12:04:19 PM »

has anyone got variance data for the various Scottish R1b clades.  It would be interesting to know.  

I suppose to look at the NE Scottish data it does show the remarkable dominance of L21 in areas where Celtic languages were spoken late.  In the case of the NE of Scotland Celtic was very dominant even as the 15th century began.  It is a very interesting question.  How come L21 appears to have dominanted among the Irish, the Scots, the Welsh and apparently the Picts too?  That is a very wide area.  How come L21 came to dominate all these areas.  The common denominator is not recent.  While there were comings and goings between these areas in historic times, I dont think they were on a scale that can explain the sheer dominance of L21.  Its clearly older than that.  
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2011, 12:16:26 PM »

Authun,

It is interesting you mentioned The Ceide Fields.

http://www.ceidefields.com/home.html

If these farmers date from 6,000 BCE, and they practiced agriculture, could they have been M269 or a decendant and if so how did they get there so early?
Does Busby's revised data support an higher diversity, older age for M269 in Ireland similar to that of Anatolia?

Gerard

thats 6000 years ago=4000BC.  The ceide fields are a matter of rare survival (through deep burial in peat).  Such fields were probably common everywhere but normally have been removed.  For this sort of burial to happen you need peat to cover former dry land areas so its the blanket bogs that cover the uplands that contains them.  Lowland raised bog is kind of the opposite in that they are often former open water areas that would never have featured fields in the past.  Upland bog needs a particular combination of precipitation level,, soil conditions, altitude, latitude and only moderate slope.  Ireland just so happens to have the perfect combination for developing blanket bog.  Away from the west coast these tend to be in the areas over 600ft but in the west the precipitation is so high that blanket bog can go down into the lowland too.  There is a huge amount of blanket bog in upland and western Ireland and the Ceide fields are probably just the tip of the iceberg of vast areas of buried Neolithic landscape in Ireland.  It can be 2 or 3metres (6.5-10ft) deep and even entire megalithic tombs of some height have been known to be buried. 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 12:25:00 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
authun
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« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2011, 06:08:58 PM »

If these farmers date from 6,000 BCE, and they practiced agriculture, could they have been M269 or a decendant and if so how did they get there so early?
Does Busby's revised data support an higher diversity, older age for M269 in Ireland similar to that of Anatolia?

I'm not the one to ask about these R1b subclades. I leave that to others. I don't now enough about them.

The Ceide field systems are much older than the celtic field systems which date to the late bronze age. What that means, I don't know but the interesting aspect is that celtic fields have a north european distribution.

cheers
authun

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authun
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« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2011, 06:41:04 PM »


The age estimate is aprox. 5,500 ybp. Is that out of range with the continental farming practices you mentioned?

Perhaps they had an abundance of rock? what else do you do with unwanted rock in a field besides place it around the parimeter of the field, or use it to build something. I have seen some very rocky places in Ireland's n/w quarter.


Yes, they are much earlier than celtic fields which appear in the late bronze age, around 1500BC.  As far as I understand, the feature of the Ceide fields is that dry stone walls were built as opposed to other neolithic field systems where the stones were simply moved to the edges of the fields and left in a pile.

We have examples of neolithic field systems in places like the peak district which show this. As you can see from this plan of Swine Sty on Big Moor however, these field systems

http://www.peakwalk.org.uk/ssmap.asp

are quite different from celtic field systems:

http://www.lastrefuge.co.uk/php/show-images-all-big.php?id=DW2596

which are much more regular and compact in their layout and which use earthen banks.

There are other field systems, coaxial and cairn fields which, like the neolithic examples, are created by piling the loose stones on the boundaries. There are some excellent layout plans and photos in this link:

http://www.swaag.org/pdf/Coaxial%20Field%20Systems%20in%20Swaledale%20-%20landscape.pdf

cheers
authun
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 06:41:48 PM by authun » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2011, 07:37:04 PM »

has anyone got variance data for the various Scottish R1b clades.  It would be interesting to know.  

I suppose to look at the NE Scottish data it does show the remarkable dominance of L21 in areas where Celtic languages were spoken late.  In the case of the NE of Scotland Celtic was very dominant even as the 15th century began.  It is a very interesting question.  How come L21 appears to have dominanted among the Irish, the Scots, the Welsh and apparently the Picts too?  That is a very wide area.  How come L21 came to dominate all these areas.  The common denominator is not recent.  While there were comings and goings between these areas in historic times, I dont think they were on a scale that can explain the sheer dominance of L21.  Its clearly older than that.  

Those are good questions, especially the one asking how L21 came to be so dominant in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. I used to think I had some idea, but I just don't know.

If L21 originated on the Continent, which I think it did, it is certainly much reduced there when compared with the British Isles. Only France seems to have fairly high frequencies of L21, but not everywhere.

Maybe ancient dna will tell us something eventually.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2011, 01:17:38 PM »


The age estimate is aprox. 5,500 ybp. Is that out of range with the continental farming practices you mentioned?

Perhaps they had an abundance of rock? what else do you do with unwanted rock in a field besides place it around the parimeter of the field, or use it to build something. I have seen some very rocky places in Ireland's n/w quarter.


Yes, they are much earlier than celtic fields which appear in the late bronze age, around 1500BC.  As far as I understand, the feature of the Ceide fields is that dry stone walls were built as opposed to other neolithic field systems where the stones were simply moved to the edges of the fields and left in a pile.

We have examples of neolithic field systems in places like the peak district which show this. As you can see from this plan of Swine Sty on Big Moor however, these field systems

http://www.peakwalk.org.uk/ssmap.asp

are quite different from celtic field systems:

http://www.lastrefuge.co.uk/php/show-images-all-big.php?id=DW2596

which are much more regular and compact in their layout and which use earthen banks.

There are other field systems, coaxial and cairn fields which, like the neolithic examples, are created by piling the loose stones on the boundaries. There are some excellent layout plans and photos in this link:

http://www.swaag.org/pdf/Coaxial%20Field%20Systems%20in%20Swaledale%20-%20landscape.pdf

cheers
authun

That is true.  However, later there seems to have been a long period where a lot of land was not so elaborately divided up.  One thing a lot of people dont realise is the Irish and I believe the Scots too prior to the 19th century often operated a system known as rundale or runrig where the infield land was essentially open and divided among an extended family unit (living in a cluster of simple cottages called 'clachans') into unenclosed strips.  I think this was the arable land.  The outfield was beyond this.  If I recall correctly a boundary protected the infield from the livestock in the outfields.  They might have been divided into plots.  Further out still the uplands pasture were unenclosed common rough grazing lands of the parish.  A great deal of land was unenclosed.  That doesnt sound a lot different from the infield-outfield system of England.  However, there seem to be hints that this was the tail end of a very very long tradition In Ireland going back to at least 500AD if not long before.  If you look at the  old Irish laws they seem to envisage a similar system. 
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« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2011, 08:00:33 PM »

One thing that comes out loud and clear from Busby, I think, is how overwhelmingly L21+ Ireland, Scotland, and Wales are. What Poland and Russia are for R1a, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales are for L21, only even more so.

I don't want to aggravate anybody, but it makes me kind of proud. I don't mean that in an overweening, triumphalist sense, but more in the sense that it makes me happy to be L21+, too.
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