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Author Topic: Another Italian L-21?  (Read 2914 times)
eochaidh
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« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2011, 02:28:51 PM »

It's not a question as to whether Ireland is the source of Continental L21+, it is a question as to whether more recent (1,000 to 1,500 years) Irish Haplotypes can be found on the Continent.

Or, in the case of the Cluster which has 10 Isles members and one German member, whether more recent (1,000 to 1,500 years) Isles Haplotypes can be found in Germany.

There is a recent example of Irish testers being found to be P66+. Until recently, P66+ had only been found among Italian testers. Again, the question is whether a more recent (1,000 to 1,500) Irish subclade can being found in Italy, or is this the case of an Italian subclade being found in Ireland.

Again, nothing at all to do with the origin of L21+. 
And, actually, more recent could even represent 500 to 1,500 years.
 
Thanks,  Miles Kehoe
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rms2
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« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2011, 02:55:06 PM »

Once again, by far most of what you are seeing are Americans who have made mistakes in their paper trails, not continentals (actual current citizens of European countries) who belong to "Isles clusters", etc. Sometimes they are adoptees who were never real certain of their paper trail genealogies, which is why they resorted to dna testing in the first place.

That is not to say no continental will ever be found who is the y-dna descendant of an Irishman, but I doubt the number of such cases is that high.

Regarding P66, it had been found in Italy by the University of Arizona, but the P66+ man was never identified and certainly never identified as an Italian. There was one such P66+ sample, and, for a long time, it was the only P66+ anyone knew about. I know because I wrote Bennett Greenspan a few years ago and asked him about it.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 03:05:52 PM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2011, 03:24:34 PM »

Watching again to Argiedude’s haplotype, there are some interesting news:
1)   there is a Westwood (ySearch: 2T2AQ) who matches Kellaway (ySearch: GPYZW) and is upgraded to 37 markers
2)   there is Soncina (ySearch: UBTF9) who has DYS19=10, even though he was wrong to put his data on ySearch. I have written to him. Soncina is a Lombard surname, linked with the town of Soncino. Soncino was in Italy a Jewish surname, but Soncina is certainly Italian. He, even though almost distant from Argiedude, could belong to the same Italian cluster. Hope he replies to me.

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eochaidh
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« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2011, 03:28:22 PM »

Part of my confusion on P66 comes from Mike's L21 Data Sheet. It shows an "Unknown" L21/L513/P66 with an origin of Italy. There are three other members who are L21/L513/P66. Black, McCown, and McKown, all from Ulster, Ireland.

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2011, 07:38:20 PM »

I figure that Spain and France had about 30 million in the 1600-1700 period (very roughly) and even all the wild geese of that period would only add up to 0.5% of the population.  Their chances of multiplication were probably much worse than average given a military career and bottom rung of society status for most (not all).  So, I would imagine that a wild geese person would only be thrown up at a rate of about one in a sample of several hundred French/Spanish.  There may well be tens of thousands of wild geese descendants but against total populations of 10s of millions I dont think the current databases are likely to have picked up more than a couple of them.  I would say though that if a predominantly Irish cluster has one stray continental member and the match is only 4 or 5 hundred years back according to FTDNA matching then (unless he is a NPE) then the continental may well be of distant Irish origin. 

I think how close the match is is the crucial thing.  I have personally seen a single stray Germanic surnamed person for my cluster which is otherwise  dozens of Irish and Scots.  That has got to be either a NPE or back migration to the continent in the last few hundred years because he is a close match. 
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rms2
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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2011, 06:53:18 AM »

Part of my confusion on P66 comes from Mike's L21 Data Sheet. It shows an "Unknown" L21/L513/P66 with an origin of Italy. There are three other members who are L21/L513/P66. Black, McCown, and McKown, all from Ulster, Ireland.

The P66 sample was actually collected in Italy, but there never was any background information on the donor. That is why I emailed Bennett Greenspan about it two or three years ago. I wanted to confirm that the donor was Italian. He told me the sample was anonymous and that it could not be confirmed as having come from an Italian, even though it was collected by the University of Arizona in Italy.

It might have come from a University of Arizona student in Italy at the time.
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rms2
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« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2011, 07:05:03 AM »

Watching again to Argiedude’s haplotype, there are some interesting news:
1)   there is a Westwood (ySearch: 2T2AQ) who matches Kellaway (ySearch: GPYZW) and is upgraded to 37 markers
2)   there is Soncina (ySearch: UBTF9) who has DYS19=10, even though he was wrong to put his data on ySearch. I have written to him. Soncina is a Lombard surname, linked with the town of Soncino. Soncino was in Italy a Jewish surname, but Soncina is certainly Italian. He, even though almost distant from Argiedude, could belong to the same Italian cluster. Hope he replies to me.



Gioiello,

I ran argiedude in Ysearch again and there is no one within a genetic distance of ten at 37 markers. When you throw around British Isles surnames like Westwood and Kellaway in reference to argiedude without indicating just how very far off his haplotype they are, you make it sound as if he has close matches with them, which is just NOT the case. Argiedude has no close matches at all.

His closest "match" is 15 away at 37 markers. That is hardly a match. Argiedude has no real matches at 25 markers either.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 07:06:35 AM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2011, 09:10:04 AM »

I am seeing you are fond to the STRs’ Mutation Rate, and pour cause French would say: you have bet all your theories on that. Dienekes has dismissed that, and you could say that he hasn’t been ever fond to it, preferring the autosomal tests. I, who am not you nor Dienekes, have used it, but only for a few centuries or thousands of years. You know what I think about that which invalidates it to me: mutations around the modal and convergence to the modal as time passes, then only some outliers can say something to us.
These ideas need we use a different way of reasoning.
Why I link Argiedude to Kellaway and now to Westwood, which belong practically to the same family? Because they have some markers in common which is difficult they are so by chance, they are then a “cluster”. They are DYS19=10 and DYS385=11,11. There is another marker very important, one with the lowest mutation rate: DYS448. That Argiedude is 20 and Kellaway/Westwood 21 demonstrates that they belong (probably, because we haven’t a SNP test of them) to the same cluster. Who knows the markers, knows that this marker is modal at 19 and very rarely mutates. Kellaway and Westwood have had what I call a mutation for the tangent, from 20 to 21 instead of a return to the modal 19. This is what is meaningful.
That you look for a closeness in the other markers is a contradiction in terms: it is good that they are far, the most far as possible, because this indicates the ancientness of that cluster and probably of that haplotype.
Why do I hope having found in Soncina (UBTF9) the possible witness of this hypothetical Italian R-L21?
Because he has the very rare DYS19=10. Then he has DYS385=11,14 (the modal before the RecLOH), and other modal markers or quasi-modal, but DYS450=10, against the ubiquitous 8 could be a sign.

I have written to Andrea Soncina, but so far no answer. And I haven't been lucky: one Andrea Soncina is a beautiful girl, a singer, and the other cannot be him. Probably this Andrea Soncina of the test is an Italian American.
Surname Soncina is very rare, not more than 1 hundred and half on the Phone Directory, and probably has nothing to do with the town of Soncino. It is a surname of the west coast of the Garda Lake, conservative zone, mountainous, and also Argiedude comes from the Come Lake. Probably the population of these regions is very ancient. The surname is from a local name, perhaps: Latin “sonchus” sow-thistle, from the substrate.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 09:47:26 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2011, 06:48:17 PM »

Part of my confusion on P66 comes from Mike's L21 Data Sheet. It shows an "Unknown" L21/L513/P66 with an origin of Italy. There are three other members who are L21/L513/P66. Black, McCown, and McKown, all from Ulster, Ireland.
I list the MDKA information only as it is provided. If village or parish information is available I add the count/department, region info in if I can look it up.

As far as that P66+ person, I consider that his MDKA (which is the testee himself) has only one geographic location that we know of, Italy.  That doesn't mean he is of Italian ancestry, but it doesn't mean he is not. I don't prejudice any MDKA information by interpreting surname nor haplogroup affiliations. I know the Cimbri might do a little more interpretation than I do. LOL.

Now, for a little more fun - there is a speculative explanation.  The McCown/McKown/Black folks are in 11-14 Group A-2-M (some call it Airgíalla II.) A-2-M is primarily made up of Maguire/McGuire folks. They have in their family genealogy a "Colonal Maguire" who was part of the Wild  Geese exodus circa 1691. He is recorded as having retired in Italy.

The Maguire's are P66- but P66 is "flippy". It sits on an arm of the Y DNA that is subject to recLOH's so it can be wiped out and reset to P66-. I'm not sure why it used as an UEP type SNP on the Y tree. It shouldn't be, IMHO.

BTW, on P66, the Maguire/McCown people say the McCown/McKown P66+ results only came up as derived after multiple retests and the changing laboratories. We were all left wondering if we all need to ask for a retest of P66 at the other laboratory. I don't think it is worth it though as P66 is not an "permanent" Unique Event Polymorphism.
 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 06:53:46 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2011, 06:22:21 PM »

From Dienekes:
“I am a R-L371+ under M269. The unique STR signature is 448=17, 456=14, 450=10 with 385a=11 or 12. ISOGG will put this newest sub M269 / sub L21 branch on the haplotree within 2 weeks. One think I have learned in my research is that males in this line have a longer lifespan than their generational counterparts over the past 400 years or about 13 to 14 generations. As an example, my father lived 100 years (1890 to 1990). He had a very specific dietary regimen and a unique physically active job. Family documents and family lore held that we follow a specific marriage pattern in our family to preserve our heritage and I guess from what I can see our gene pool. I am seeking to fund academic research in this area and please tell me on this forum if I did so how it would or wouldn't help in answering some of your questions on the bigger pool of M269 males. Please limit your response on this forum to 150 words or less in a single post and include the sample size needed how you would ID and recruit participants to prepare bullet proof research”.

In a thread I have on www.worldfamilies.net, Another Italian L21?, I wrote:

“Why do I hope having found in Soncina (UBTF9) the possible witness of this hypothetical Italian R-L21? Because he has the very rare DYS19=10. Then he has DYS385=11,14 (the modal before the RecLOH), and other modal markers or quasi-modal, but DYS450=10, against the ubiquitous 8 could be a sign”.

My hypothesis is that also R-L21 can be born in the Italian Lake region, having in Argiedude, from Como lake, one of the most ancient haplotype of this haplogroup. This hypothetical R-L21 Soncina is from Garda Lake, and he has the very rare DYS450=10. I don’t know if you know that there, in a little town, has been found a mutation which permit to its owner to live till 100 years. For this I am very interested to your case.


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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2011, 06:26:31 PM »

Is that R-L371 person you quoted above Italian?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2011, 07:05:19 PM »

Not, of course. He is signed like Jones. On your project L21 I found only two samples with DYS450=10:

85661 Dicks,b-UK,in Nfld.1791;b1774 L371+ Wales R1b1a2a1a1b4 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 17 30 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-21 14 15 17 17 36-36 12 12 11 9 16-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 22-23 16 10 12 12 17 10 12 23 20 13 13 11 13 11 11 12 12  

42106 James Berry Roberts, b,1843, Alabama Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b4 13 24 14 11 12-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 17 30 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 14 15 16 17 36-36 12 12 11 9 16-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 22-23 16 10 12 12 16 10 12 23 20 13 13 11 13 11 11 12 12  

Of  course they are all British. That there is a link amongst these persons and the Italian ones is an hypothesis of mine and a hope, but, of course, I don't know. I wrote to Soncina, but, of course, no reply.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 07:06:19 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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