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Author Topic: R1b in Norway: Data from the Busby Study  (Read 3300 times)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2011, 08:35:11 PM »

Scandinavians weren't immune to being taken as slaves themselves. I believe it was Olaf Tryggvason who was snatched  by Estonian pirates and made a slave until he was ransomed by relatives. (I'm pretty sure it was him, but I'm not going to bother to check for a reference - I'm working from memory.)

Yes, Olav was taken by Estonians, only later spotted and rescued by a Scandinavian in a slave market.

Maybe clades like M222 and L159.2 got to Norway much later. I have spoken much with Mr. Sedeniussen in the project (who is endeared by a possible connection to Highlanders), and he has always considered a foreign origin of his paternal line. Apparently, Norway has long been a country of foreigners. These are his words; I know near to nothing of Norwegian history.

I think that most of the slave trading in Norway happened between neighboring Scandinavians. So, like you said, it was less likely among the Brits.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 08:36:30 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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authun
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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2011, 06:17:33 AM »

Contacts between Britain, Ireland, Northern Germany and Scandinavia in the bronze age remains another possibility. Metallurgical analysis of the Nebra Sky disc has shown that the copper and gold came from Cornwall, an indication of trade links, but the distribution of sun disks and ceremonial Herzsprung type shields suggests also a technological, if they are indeed for calendrical purposes or at least religious exchange.

Herzsprung type shields feature concentric circles with either U or V shaped notches. Around 20 are found in northern europe but the largest find was at Fröslunda, in Sweden where an additional 18 were found. In Ireland leather shields of the same type have been found as well as wooden moulds for their shaping.

You can see the U shaped notches on this Herzsprung type shield found at Tarup in Denmark:

http://www.cpt.co.uk/shields/tarup.jpg

and two V shaped notches in this leather shield from Cloonbrin in Ireland:

http://www.cpt.co.uk/shields/cloonbrin.jpg

The exact purpose of the notches is unknown but the shields probably have a ceremonial purpose, rather like the sun disks, and may be calendrical. Ultimately, this design appears to have its origins in the east where decoration on pottery fragments show shields with V notches:

http://www.cpt.co.uk/shields/fragment.jpg

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authun
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Heber
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« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2011, 08:55:40 AM »

Contacts between Britain, Ireland, Northern Germany and Scandinavia in the bronze age remains another possibility. Metallurgical analysis of the Nebra Sky disc has shown that the copper and gold came from Cornwall, an indication of trade links, but the distribution of sun disks and ceremonial Herzsprung type shields suggests also a technological, if they are indeed for calendrical purposes or at least religious exchange.

Herzsprung type shields feature concentric circles with either U or V shaped notches. Around 20 are found in northern europe but the largest find was at Fröslunda, in Sweden where an additional 18 were found. In Ireland leather shields of the same type have been found as well as wooden moulds for their shaping.

You can see the U shaped notches on this Herzsprung type shield found at Tarup in Denmark:

http://www.cpt.co.uk/shields/tarup.jpg

and two V shaped notches in this leather shield from Cloonbrin in Ireland:

http://www.cpt.co.uk/shields/cloonbrin.jpg

The exact purpose of the notches is unknown but the shields probably have a ceremonial purpose, rather like the sun disks, and may be calendrical. Ultimately, this design appears to have its origins in the east where decoration on pottery fragments show shields with V notches:

http://www.cpt.co.uk/shields/fragment.jpg

best
authun



Authun,
I seem to remember identical designs for shields being found in Tartessus, Iberia and Prof. Barry Cunliffe highlighted the similarity to the leather shields found in bogs in Ireland. I will check out my copy of "Celtic from the West" this evening and try to make a photo for posting.
Gerard
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



authun
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« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2011, 10:00:52 AM »

Authun,
I seem to remember identical designs for shields being found in Tartessus, Iberia and Prof. Barry Cunliffe highlighted the similarity to the leather shields found in bogs in Ireland. I will check out my copy of "Celtic from the West" this evening and try to make a photo for posting.
Gerard

Yes, that's quite right. Herzsprung shields are not the only item either. The Griffzungen swords too have an origin in the eastern mediterranean, though their heaviest concentration is in Denmark. These things happen in the Bronze Age.

My post was not start tracking the spread of these objects or what their distribution might mean, but to highlight that trade existed and some common aspects appear in the cultures between Britain and Scandinavia. If one wants to look at how 'British' male lineages might arise in Scandinavia, the slave trade is not the only possible reason.

Of particular interest is the discovery that the Nebra disk contains copper from Britain and not from the mines near Bischofshofen as previously assumed. We have the sort of mobility which may account for some of these odd instances of SNPs which are not easily accounted for by migrations of whole peoples.

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authun
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 10:02:00 AM by authun » Logged
GoldenHind
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« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2011, 05:43:20 PM »


There is yet another possibility which is never considered. There are indications that some Irish were amalgamated into Viking society in Ireland. There are signs of what has been described as "Hiberno-Norse" settlement in Normandy. Some Irish personal names were adopted by the Norwegian Vikings (Njall comes to mind). Some of M222 in Scandinavia could well have been there as willing accomplices rather than as unwilling slaves.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2011, 07:26:25 PM »


There is yet another possibility which is never considered. There are indications that some Irish were amalgamated into Viking society in Ireland. There are signs of what has been described as "Hiberno-Norse" settlement in Normandy. Some Irish personal names were adopted by the Norwegian Vikings (Njall comes to mind). Some of M222 in Scandinavia could well have been there as willing accomplices rather than as unwilling slaves.
Interesting you mention this, GoldenHind. The Kings of Leinster were allied with the Dublin Norse during the Battle of Clontarf, and I believe many Norse kings were related to Irish kings from Leinster.

Once Boru defeated the Dublin Norse and Leinstermen, I am sure some of them left together to settle elsewhere.
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MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2011, 07:59:15 PM »

Honestly, I thought of that sort of thing myself, but, of course, it still suggests a British Isles origin for Norwegian L21.
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Heber
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« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2011, 03:30:36 AM »

Authun,
I seem to remember identical designs for shields being found in Tartessus, Iberia and Prof. Barry Cunliffe highlighted the similarity to the leather shields found in bogs in Ireland. I will check out my copy of "Celtic from the West" this evening and try to make a photo for posting.
Gerard

Yes, that's quite right. Herzsprung shields are not the only item either. The Griffzungen swords too have an origin in the eastern mediterranean, though their heaviest concentration is in Denmark. These things happen in the Bronze Age.

My post was not start tracking the spread of these objects or what their distribution might mean, but to highlight that trade existed and some common aspects appear in the cultures between Britain and Scandinavia. If one wants to look at how 'British' male lineages might arise in Scandinavia, the slave trade is not the only possible reason.

Of particular interest is the discovery that the Nebra disk contains copper from Britain and not from the mines near Bischofshofen as previously assumed. We have the sort of mobility which may account for some of these odd instances of SNPs which are not easily accounted for by migrations of whole peoples.

best
authun

Athun, the photo of the leather shields from bogs in Co. Longford and the identical depictions on stelae from in Solance de Cabanas, Tartessian in Europe between the Oceans, Barry Cunliffe. (8.16, 8.17, P256)
Map 8.18 in Cunliffe's book shows Q Celtic shaded for West and Central Iberia (Celtiberian and Lusitanian) along with all of Ireland, Scotland and the Western Isles as well as Lepontic (near Halstatt).
P Celtic is cross hatched for most of France and western Germany (Gaulish) England and Wales (Brittonic).
Among the 400 or so objects dredged from the river in nearby Huevla were 88 spearheads some of the Irish type.
It is interesting that in an earlier chapter "Assimilation in the Maritime Regions" he argues for a three route migration of the early Neolithic people into the Isles, including the great rivers of Europe and also the Atlantic facade (4,000 BC).
Anthony emphasised the maritime migration route from the earliest settlement of the Greek Islands using Byblos boats to the later Phoenician voyages beyond the Pillars of Hercules and settlement near Tartessian. The Megalithic builders 4,500 -3,500 BC traded along the Atlantic Facade including Brittany and Ireland.
He made the point that a round trip from Black Sea to the Pillars of Hercules and back again could easily be accomplished in the Summer sailing season using the favorable currents of the Meditteranean. He also pointed out that Neolithic people could navigate the great rivers of Europe from the Black Sea to the Atlantic coast in less than six months. We know that the later Vikings made bi annual raiding trips to the Isles  after sowing in the Spring and Harvest in the Autumn.
During the Bronze age, copper mines in Ross Island in Co. Kerry (2,500  - 2,400 BC) producing flat axes and halberds  and Gold Mines in Co. Wicklow producing gold collars (lunulae) were trading with the tin producers of Cornwall and the Morbihan Loire estuary (p206).

If you look at Jeans excellent tables of ancient DNA, you will notice that mtDNA H was found in many of the same locations where L21 was found but also included a hotspot in Denmark.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2011, 09:48:02 AM »

There is yet another possibility which is never considered. There are indications that some Irish were amalgamated into Viking society in Ireland. There are signs of what has been described as "Hiberno-Norse" settlement in Normandy. Some Irish personal names were adopted by the Norwegian Vikings (Njall comes to mind). Some of M222 in Scandinavia could well have been there as willing accomplices rather than as unwilling slaves.


I agree. That is what I was trying to say over on the other thread earlier.
M222 could have made it to Norway pre-Viking, during the Viking period and post the Viking period as merchants.


I'm not sure the difference between forced labor and a job is always as clear as we think. Do not baseball team owners trade players for other players and players for cash?

Some migration may have been forced, some not, even during the Viking period.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 09:49:05 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2011, 12:34:02 PM »

My point wasn't so much the forced labor/thrall thing - although I do think that is a factor - it was that the presence of British Isles-localized L21 clades in Norway tends to weaken the case that L21 there predates the Viking Era and is native.
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rms2
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« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2011, 12:58:23 PM »

My point wasn't so much the forced labor/thrall thing - although I do think that is a factor - it was that the presence of British Isles-localized L21 clades in Norway tends to weaken the case that L21 there predates the Viking Era and is native.

If you all recall, I was at one time one of the most vocal advocates for L21 being indigenous (at least from the Bronze Age) in Norway. In fact, at times it felt as if I were the only one advocating that. When the Moffat and Wilson book, The Scots: A Genetic Journey, came out, a certain person who posts on Rootsweb triumphantly announced its conclusion, that L21 in Norway got there as a result of Viking Era slavery, and jumped all over it. One could almost see him smirking in the text of his posts. I argued against him, pretty much alone, as I recall.

But I try to go with what I think is true, based on the evidence, rather than what I wish to be true.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 01:02:41 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2011, 03:01:52 PM »

My point wasn't so much the forced labor/thrall thing - although I do think that is a factor - it was that the presence of British Isles-localized L21 clades in Norway tends to weaken the case that L21 there predates the Viking Era and is native.

If you all recall, I was at one time one of the most vocal advocates for L21 being indigenous (at least from the Bronze Age) in Norway. In fact, at times it felt as if I were the only one advocating that. When the Moffat and Wilson book, The Scots: A Genetic Journey, came out, a certain person who posts on Rootsweb triumphantly announced its conclusion, that L21 in Norway got there as a result of Viking Era slavery, and jumped all over it. One could almost see him smirking in the text of his posts. I argued against him, pretty much alone, as I recall.

But I try to go with what I think is true, based on the evidence, rather than what I wish to be true.

I think the whole concept of Viking slavery is merely a thinly disguised form of snobbery and one-upsmanship seen too often in forums. There was an idiot on another forum who argued all R1b in Scandinavia was due to Viking slavery. Pretty absurd, considering that R1b is clearly the largest HG in Denmark, and if the recent Busby data is accurate, in Norway as well. As Authun has pointed out, there really isn't any evidence to support the idea that large numbers of slaves were brought back from Britain to Scandinavia. I think we should forget the whole idea.

So let's just focus on the question of whether all L21 in Norway is a result of Viking age and later migration. Even if we accept that much, or even most of L21 arrived in the historical period, there is no reason why the possibility that some portion of it arrived earlier should be discounted. If there were trading networks between Britain and Norway during the Bronze Age, as appears to be the case, that possibility shouldn't be ignored.

The proof will come as more subclades of L21 are discovered. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some are found which are much stronger on the continent than in Britain.

Let me also point out, that since I am L21 negative, I really don't have a horse in this race.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2011, 05:02:43 PM »

My point wasn't so much the forced labor/thrall thing - although I do think that is a factor - it was that the presence of British Isles-localized L21 clades in Norway tends to weaken the case that L21 there predates the Viking Era and is native.
I agree, it's important to look under the covers. L21 is too big and old to consider it in a monolithic way. I generally think you need to get down to the younger subclades and cluster levels to make a determination. A Scots modal L21 in Norway probably came from Scotland.  How long ago and by what means is another question. 

Part of the weight of the argument is that we don't think L21 is oldest in Scandinavia. I say that because I'd place more weight on a few sparse L21 findings in the Rhine Valley or upper Danuble or N. Italy. That being said, a single L226 person found in Bavaria wouldn't mean that much to me, unless he had a strange haplotype for an L226 person. A DF21 person there might be worthy of greater research since DF21 appears much older.
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A.D.
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« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2011, 09:44:39 PM »

I wonder what the spread of these HG would be like if there was no roman empire in  w. europe. would the spread be more even from ireland britian and across the chanel.
could it  be that there was a steady rate of mixing of peoples  interupted by the roman presence. changed trade route
 more movement on the perrifferies etc would that have any bearing on how we see the distribution
just a dumb thought based on the idea that when i lived on the south coast of england it was quicker to go to france by car than to london it probably always was and i don't think people have changed much 
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OConnor
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« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2011, 08:29:27 AM »

My point wasn't so much the forced labor/thrall thing - although I do think that is a factor - it was that the presence of British Isles-localized L21 clades in Norway tends to weaken the case that L21 there predates the Viking Era and is native.
I agree, it's important to look under the covers. L21 is too big and old to consider it in a monolithic way. I generally think you need to get down to the younger subclades and cluster levels to make a determination. A Scots modal L21 in Norway probably came from Scotland.  How long ago and by what means is another question. 

Part of the weight of the argument is that we don't think L21 is oldest in Scandinavia. I say that because I'd place more weight on a few sparse L21 findings in the Rhine Valley or upper Danuble or N. Italy. That being said, a single L226 person found in Bavaria wouldn't mean that much to me, unless he had a strange haplotype for an L226 person. A DF21 person there might be worthy of greater research since DF21 appears much older.

Norway lost half of it's population to the 1349 plague. Perhaps some L21 from the Isles moved there to fill in the gaps? Or could it have wiped out some L21 diversity perhaps already in place in Norway?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2197762
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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