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Author Topic: Calling all R-L11* (P310*) or L11+ U106- P312-  (Read 7379 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: August 26, 2011, 06:04:57 PM »

I'm looking for kit #s and project names for all haplotypes that are deep clade tested as

L11+ U106- P312-

P310 and P311 are phylogenetically equivalent to L11 but besides being positive for either of those three it is important to be both U106- and P312-. They show up long label-wise as R1b1a2a1a1 (two "a1"s in a row at the end.)

R-L11* paragroup people are brothers to the two very large subclades of Western Europe, R-P312 (aka S116) and R-U106 (aka S21).

I'm just trying to track the origins for R-L11's subclades. I've already got about all of the P312 and U106 people I can find so I'm looking for the fairly rare R-L11* folks.

From the R1b and Subclades and Ht35 projects I have these so 47 so far:


fN9165____ Manuchariants____________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ TAC7A___ Armenia, Yerevan
fN39211___ Klassen__________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ 6YZTY___ Poland
f123914___ Powers___________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ ZUFG5___ Poland
fE4034____ Nowak____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ 4UGEK___ Poland, Greater Poland Voivodeship, Poznań
f119582___ Gronkiewicz______________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ AKBS5___ Poland, Subcarpathian Voivodeship, Jaslo Co., Jaslo
fN49180___ D'Ambrosia_______________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ 9R8XJ___ Italy, Campania, Salerno
f173307___ Mülli____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ AK2JC___ Switzerland, Zurich, Dielsdorf, Schöfflisdorf
fE8946____ Escobar__________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ WERHS___ France, Aquitaine, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Biarritz
f67632____ Demarcus_________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ CZZUW___ France
f71997____ Marcotte_________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f69898____ Dick_____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ ZD9TD___ Germany, Thuringia, Lerchenhügel
f110095___ Ohlhaeuser_______________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ ASWME___ Germany, Baden-Württemberg
f151345___ Merkel___________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ ___ Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Stuttgart, Schlierbach
f23858____ Mayer____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ ___ Germany, Bavaria, Middle Franconia, Dinkelsbühl
fN2197____ Coontz___________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ MRNGU___ Germany
f103102___ Jacob____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ ___ Germany
fN70876___ Madsen___________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ C6ZFX___ Denmark, Viborg Amt, Mønsted
f159936___ Edison___________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ YKECS___ Netherlands
f128054___ Van Der Meij_____________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ U52PK___ Netherlands
fN89073___ Van De Putte_____________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ BKHU5___ Netherlands, Zeeland, Retranchement
f142454___ Jobse____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ KU2PE___ Netherlands, Zuid-Holland, Ouddorp
f38215____ Fox______________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ BHAMJ___ England, East, Essex Co.
f120398___ Swindell_________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ WRQ25___ England, East Midlands, Derbyshire, Derby
f154889___ Fish_____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ 9RD3F___ England, South East, Berkshire?, Windsor
f64311____ Mason____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ AQBTG___ England, West Midlands, Worcestershire, Pershore
fN14767___ Baker____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ J9362___ England
f41275____ Bates____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ 3WEAA___ England
f135186___ Blades___________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ EUFM4___ England
f206123___ Diggs____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ 735TA___ England
f16296____ Foster___________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ 4A43H___ England
f170071___ Hilton___________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ ___ England
f187354___ Medley___________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ W9CH3___ England
fN8721____ zzzUnkName_______________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ D7VVN___ England
f66955____ Lyle_____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ ___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Larne
fN63307___ Jackson__________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ PSFDJ___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Londonderry, Coleraine
f197182___ Shannon__________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ DFWFY___ Ireland
f117368___ Smith____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ G4GBJ___ Ireland
f91188____ Meeks____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ 2BU6T___ Scotland
f6150_____ Turner___________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ ZHC83___ Scotland
f11391____ Meeks____________________ R-L11____________ zzUnassigned___ QNB6T___ UK
f74470____ Cotner___________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ G95T2___ zzzUnkOrigin
f91292____ Granade__________________ R-L11____________ zzUnassigned___ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f87571____ Hoskins__________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ SR33S___ zzzUnkOrigin
f28407____ Meek_____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
fN24160___ Pergrem__________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ CF8DK___ zzzUnkOrigin
f137835___ Sharp____________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ KHY5H___ zzzUnkOrigin
f21833____ Wright___________________ R-L11*___________ zzUnassigned___ 8E4PR___ zzzUnkOrigin


« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 06:28:37 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2012, 02:55:40 PM »

Can you post or tell me the link of the L11* haplotypes so I can run the Gen111t on them?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
k.o.gran
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2012, 03:51:41 PM »

I believe you don't have these?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/green/default.aspx?section=ysnp
N69103

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b2/default.aspx?section=ysnp
44052
219793
226232
105197

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sinclair/default.aspx?section=ysnp
B1201
216606
192048

-Kai
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razyn
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2012, 04:17:19 PM »

Mike, in re a couple of the "unknown origins" people on your list, f74470 Cotner and f91292 Granade:  Those are both Americanized, and pretty rare, forms.  I'll send you their origins via email, in case that's of any use.
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k.o.gran
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2012, 04:18:22 PM »

A few more:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/null439/default.aspx?section=ysnp
54759

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/adams/default.aspx?section=ysnp
98950
141088
169774

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=ysnp
83647

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Walker%20DNA%20Project%20mtDNA%20results/default.aspx?section=ysnp
211617
21389
N9273

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WelshPatronymics/default.aspx?section=ysnp
44567
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k.o.gran
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 04:21:17 PM »

Mike, in re a couple of the "unknown origins" people on your list, f74470 Cotner and f91292 Granade:  Those are both Americanized, and pretty rare, forms.  I'll send you their origins via email, in case that's of any use.

I saw Granade listed as R-P310 in green, but his results say "L23+, L49+, L50-, L51+, L52+, M269+". Isn't that strange?

-Kai
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 06:52:24 PM »

Can you post or tell me the link of the L11* haplotypes so I can run the Gen111t on them?

They are in the files section of the R-P312 Yahoo group... well maybe its the R1b Yahoo group.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 06:52:57 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Susan Milligan
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2012, 05:02:23 PM »

Have any English R-L11* had WTY?  I have been considering applying for kit 169774 whose line goes back to Somersetshire England at least to the late 1500s.

Susan
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2012, 09:50:55 PM »

Have any English R-L11* had WTY?  I have been considering applying for kit 169774 whose line goes back to Somersetshire England at least to the late 1500s.

Susan
Looking at the WTYs in the "upper reaches" of the R1b tree, I only see one R-L11, kit 51071. MDKA James Nicolle, b ~1668, Guernsey, Channel Islands. Test results Sep 2011, coverage 218514 bp, no new SNPs found. Current coverage is averaging around twice that.

--daver
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 10:19:35 PM by df.reynolds » Logged
Adrian Ballard
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2013, 01:54:00 PM »

I have just been tested positive for p310

kit number - 258423
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b2/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2013, 02:04:32 PM »

I have just been tested positive for p310

kit number - 258423
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b2/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

Very good. I see on the Y DNA SNP report screen that you are also U106- P312-. That means that you are in the right thread. P310 and P311 are equivalent to L11+ so you are what we would call R1b-L11*.

The project that specializes in people that are U106- P312- is the R1b ht35 project. Please join it.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/

Please also consider testing out to at least 67 markers. That is the standard R1b project administrators typically use to look for matching clusters/variety and to give further advice on testing.
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Jean-Pierre
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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2013, 05:24:55 AM »

In the ongoing Belgian DNA-project there are 7 members (0,7% of the participants) R-P310+, U106-, P312-.
Their family names are Bonte, De Sutter, Kruyniers, Van Den Boogaert, Van Goey, Winnelinckx and Wilgers. All their most distant ancesters are from Flanders, except for Wilgers who has his roots in the Dutch province of Noord-Brabant.
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Adrian Ballard
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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2013, 04:58:49 PM »

Can anybody tell me the current thinking on the age for this Clade
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2013, 08:45:27 PM »

Early this year my FTDNA Deep Clade analysis came up with P310+ U106- P312-

My family line originated (earliest I have traced thus far) to Honiton in Devon (early 1800s).  A branch moved to NZ in 1879. That is my line.

Have joined the Devon project as our family name is listed (Marker) and also joined the ht35new project but disappointed at the screed of unvalidated entries they have there as they seem to me to distort the effect of being U106- & P312-

Am wondering if there are any other forums where I may learn what this haplotype actually means.  Thus far I gather (in simple terms) it implies not 'Celtic', not Anglo-Saxon & not Frisian (have done a bit of history & read Oppenheimer's book on origins of the English & wading through the haplogroup flows mentioned).

RE my own DNA, am confused by the lack of any info that adequately explains the meaning of not being in the sub-clades of U106 or P312.  Am told (Devon project manager) your DNA is very rare ?. but that just adds to the confusion.

As part of trying to get some substance am about to get a NatGeo2 kit for my 90 y.o. Uncle still in NZ (last in his generation).  Also have discovered a link to Marker family in Tamworth NSW who trace their line back to a Marker emigrating to Aust from Exeter Devon in about 1810. There are so few of us there and in NZ Aust, that I am of the opinion we may well be related. The early history of male names is near identical to our NZ line. I have already met a descendant of this line and  and hoping I can talk one of the males into a NatGeo2 test.

Any guidance re what being U106- & P312- really means will be very greatly appreciated. Also I don't have much confidence I will learn anything from the ht35new group.

Thanks

Doug Marker
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dsm - Sydney Australia
Adrian Ballard
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2013, 10:40:18 AM »

Hi Doug,

I can relate to your frustrations I have had a similar experience.

My family of Ballard have been settled in England for at least the past 800 to 900 years

Believed to be of Italian decent.

I have conducted a ONS for the Ballard name in England over the past 20 years and have taken that to pre surnames, where the names remains intact as Ballard and pre that of Bellardi the later being a family that came from Lucca North Italy during the 12th Century and settle in England. The paper trail is not conclusive and a little fractured early on so I am looking for clues through YDNA.

I have recently discovered a sample at my Terminal SNP on YSearch with the nearest match to me on Markers at 37 tested with five differences. the other sample comes from a Family from Italy. Having done some research this family name exist's in the same Area as my Ballard people.

Being new to all this I can not establish if these 2 samples show a relationship and over what time scale they may have shared a common ancestor. Through a paper trail I would estimate about 1000 years ago.


Can any body help with this..........

4XST7 - Ballard - P-310 - R1b1a2a1a1 - 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 16 16 16 17 10 11 19 23 16 15 18 15 36 37 12 12

RD34X -   Iocco - P-310 - R1b1a2a1a1 - 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 16 17 17 17 10 11 19 23 17 15 18 16 36 37 12 12



PS   -   Mike W   -  here is a new R-L11* for you above





« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 11:07:28 AM by ballardgen » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2013, 06:15:02 PM »

To BallardGen

If we do an STR map in FTDNA & list all the known P310 entries they have categorized.
They show up (roughly) as England #1, closely Germany #2 (Saxon regions), Nth Ireland about equal 3 with Belgium / Sth Netherlands. & a very few in France Italy.

But not really anywhere else (except of course US, Aust & NZ).

Below are 3 screen grabs that I hope show up and provide some perspective on the rareity of P310 vs the 'popular' sub-clades of P312 (Italo-celtic) & U106 (germanic/frisian)

P312:
[img width= height=]http://www.marker.name/ia.ws/dna/maps/p312-grab-1.jpg[/img]

U106:
[img width= height=]http://www.marker.name/ia.ws/dna/maps/u106-grab-1.jpg[/img]

P310:
[img width= height=]http://www.marker.name/ia.ws/dna/maps/p310-grab-1.jpg[/img]

If the above don't show, they are here as a slideshow (allow few secs to load) ...
http://www.marker.name/ia.ws/dna/maps/slideshow1/index.html

On the slideshow, mouse over the image to locate the navigation arrows.

Cheers  Doug M
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dsm - Sydney Australia
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« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2013, 09:40:58 PM »


Re R-L11* and my own family.  I just made an interesting connection that appears to me to correlate to the very low numbers of P310 (R1b-L11*) in England etc:

I have know for many years that the highest concentration of people named Marker actually live on the Island of Bornholm in the Baltic sea (it sits between Sweden & Germany/Poland  but is Danish territory). My research over the years also showed that most if nat all 'Markers' (Marchers) in Denmark & Sweden originated from Bornholm plus the largest numbers of people named Marker migrating to USA also originate from Bornholm with a secondary large number coming out of Nth Germany.

The research project that seems to offer a connection between Devon and Borholm was this one done on Viking DNA in England.

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/-sczsteve/Gothenburg_13Oct2011.pdf

I extracted 2 slides to here that state quite clearly a high concentration of P310 (R1b-L11*  vs U106 & P312) in Bornholm.  So our Family name and our DNA have appear to have a match.  The Danish king Guthrum fought Alfred the Great all around the English South Counties (Somerset, Wiltshire, Dorset & Devon) & eventually there was a peace deal.

http://www.marker.name/ia.ws/dna/maps/bornholm/index.html

So, it seems that with even more DNA investigation I may be able to link our P310 back to the Danish incursions and it sure gives us a believable Y-DNA history and it may help others also lost in what it means to be P310 in a P312 & U106 world. You may well be remnants of the end of warfare between the Danes & Saxons in what was Wessex in sth west England.

Doug Marker



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dsm - Sydney Australia
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« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2013, 10:12:31 PM »

Some further Danish South Counties connections.

After the reign of Alfred the Great the Danes eventually returned and took control of England (all of it) under the son of Gorm the Elder. That was of course Knut (English Canute). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorm_the_Old

King Canute was I believe a very effective King (some differ on this POV)  and at one time was the king of England and Scandinavia (today's Denmark, Sweden & Norway).
He is famous in English history for when, in an attempt to get a lesson to his court, he had a chair placed in front of the incoming tide & sat in it and ordered the sea not to come in.  He was trying to get the message through that whilst he was a king of a large empire he was not capable of the impossible.

When Canute died his 3 sons were not up to the task of keeping England & Scandinavia unified & a split occurred.  This also allowed the Saxons to regain control briefly until in 1066 the Nomans defeated the last Saxon king of England (Harold).

Point here is that during Canute's reign, it is reasonable to believe more Danes came & settled in various parts of England. Again the minute qty of P310 suggests to me that if the Danish Sth Baltic is a main source of P310 into England & elsewhere, it was likely via Danes who were part of the entourage / armies that either came over with Guthrum or with Gorm the Elder & during the reign of Canute.

I also believe (can't find the links though) that Denmark began the practice of taking a  census & it is around the time of Canute that names started to become fixed. Hence it seems probable that Danes coming to England in the reign of Canute, may have had defined surnames.  Thus, surname evidence may be helpful if the DNA trails match it. Am hoping I can do just this in regard to our Y-DNA line.

It wasn't until just after 1066 that England had its 1st census or sorts (William T C's Doomsday book).

DSM
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« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2013, 12:07:25 AM »

This is an interesting story that connects raiding Danes with the Devon Dorset regions.The article does ramble a bit and gets a bit confused when it hints at Norse Viking raiders but we can probably dismiss that implication (that they were Norse Vikings) as those folk at that period in history were really way up north or settling in the vicinity of the Irish sea e.g. at Wirral near Liverpool. A long way away.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1257333/Decapitated-Viking-skeletons-Weymouth-ditch.html

Some of these poor lads may have been relatives to us surviving South Counties P310 folk (said in good humor :)  )

There were incursions of Danes into the South counties between Alfred's period (871AD) and the reign of Knut (Canute) from AD1016 to AD1035.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut_the_Great

The 51 headless 'viking' corpses found in Dorset near Weymouth are estimated to have been there from the period Danish king Gorm invaded & likely before Canute had assumed kingship in 1016 (local Saxons (U106) & their Celtic minions (P312) would not have dared carry out such a massacre after Canute had become king).

After Canute, the kings that really mattered were Edward the Confessor then Harold Godwinson - Harold became king on Jan 6th 1066 the same year William invaded. Harold was no slouch & had force marched an army up to Stamford Bridge in Yorkshire  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stamford_Bridge where he defeated a Norse invasion by king Harald Hardrada but had to force march back down to the Sussex coast to take on William near Pevensey Bay. http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/harold_of_wessex.htm


Re the 51 corpses, I saw a detailed TV program that had done research on the skeletons & determined they were raiding Danes.  Many had been executed upright & facing their executioner. These would have been the braver warriors among them.

The story helps put some perspective on the interactions between England at Denmark at this time and how come some P310 Danish DNA could have become established in the South Counties of England.

DSM
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« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2013, 03:42:14 PM »

Hi DSM

A great deal of interesting information there and thanks for taking the time to share it.

I could respond in several places but its more Genealogy related than YDNA that I would add and I would prefer it not to be in the public domain for now.

I have set up a private page regards Genealogy discussions for R-L11* (P310*) or L11+ U106- P312-

If you would like to discus further and share notes you are more than well come

In the meantime I am going back over your posts - thanks again for sharing.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/563835056972796/
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« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2013, 01:00:59 PM »

Possible Origins Emerging

Another fellow P-310 tester of the name of "St Claire" claims that St Clare Family are one and the same as the  de Vallibus family these include names like, De Vann/De Vals/de Vaux/de Vallibus/de Wallibus/de Valley/de Wells/ et etc etc..........

Here is a paper connection to my Ballard & Vallibus Family - Hunt. B. 1563. Demise by Philip de Claris Vallibus (Clarival), and Emma his wife, to John Ballard, of St. Ives, for the life of the said Emma, of lands, houses, &c., in St. Ives and Eleswrth' (Elsworth). Feast of St. Matthew the Apostle, A.D.1249.

de Vallibus - Descended from one of the oldest and most honourable families of Normandy, which shared a conspicuous part in the government of that province previous to the conquest of England. As early as 794 a branch of the Vaux family (from which the name Wells is derived) inhabited Provence, Normandy, and were allied by marriage to most of the sovereign princes of Europe.

Line of Vaux traces back to - The Balt(h)i dynasty, Baltungs, Balthings, or Balth(e)s, existed among the Visigoths, a Germanic tribe who confronted the Western Roman Empire in its declining years. The Balti took their name from the Gothic word balþa (baltha; bald or bold). It thus meant "the Bold ones" or "Bold men". (Same has Ballard name Discripto).

Most of our P-310 ydna has been isolated in middle England North Italy/Alps and the Baltic sea on and island called Borholm - The Balthic Clan mentioned above and its King's ancestral home was Baltia, described by Pliny the Elder as an enormously large island, situated a three day Journey by ship from the shore of Scythians where they must have been at one time. could they be describing Borholm ??

Anybody with the R-L11* (P310*) or L11+ U106- P312- test who has serious medieval research for there family name is welcome to join my private facebook page to discuses this further at  

https://www.facebook.com/groups/563835056972796/


Adrian Ballard.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 07:13:16 PM by ballardgen » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2013, 07:49:43 PM »


As an update on my own family and their origins in relation to being P310:

Have traced us back to being centered in Ottery St Mary Devon & have church records from the mid 1500s (in IIRC 1548, Henry the 8th mandadted that local CofE churches were to record all BDM info).

I have also found a document dated 1300 that contains this text identifying a man (John Marker) with our family name. This is interesting for 3 reasons,  1) Devon region close to Ottery, 2) That people clearly had surnames in the 1200s and 3) the name existed and was in use within 150 years or so of King Canute's rule ending in 1034AD. The extract = Devon Record Office ref 3799M/0/ET/2/29 - Dated 1300 - "Ordrichecrofte" quit claim. Witnesses: ...... John Marker ...., Totnes.

I have also ordered the book about Viking DNA so I can get documented data on P310 being so dominant in Sth Baltic area (esp Bornholm). Am hoping to contact the authors to get their clarification as to sources for the statistics on the Sth Baltic P310 concentrations.

Also am asking as many family members & other Marker families as I can, whose origins are our part of Devon (going to take a lot of time) to do a NatGeo2 DNA analysis.  It seems important to establish as distinct a P310 history in out family, as I can. 

DSM
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dsm - Sydney Australia
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« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2013, 10:45:49 PM »

This is a follow-up to the story about the decapitated 'Vikings' found at 'The Ridgeway' near Weymouth Dorset.

The original link is http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1257333/Decapitated-Viking-skeletons-Weymouth-ditch.html

Since posting that story and after reading some poorly researched speculation at various sites as to who they were, this following information was found about a Danish attack on Exeter in the year 879 that provides a pretty good description of what probably happened. It describes a scenario that is considerably more believable than many of the other stories about the incident.

Firstly here is what seems to be an ill informed opinion at Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridgeway_Hill_Viking_burial_pit

At the bottom is a link is to a book about the history of Exeter and it very clearly describes how in 879 a force of Danes (not really 'Vikings' as such) arrived at Wareham in Dorset in a number of ships after raiding Normandy. Wareham is approx 30 kilometers from Ridgeway Hill were the execution site is located.

- The Danes marched approx 150 Kms from Wareham to Exeter and began a siege.  
- A call for help was sent to King Alfred who was up North.
- King Alfred sent messengers telling Exeter to hold out.
- King Alfred immediately set out for Exeter on the heels of the messengers.
- The town resisted the Danes who upon learning of Alfred's approach fled back to their ships at Wareham
- It is reported that they committed "the most horrid devastations, spoiling and destroying the country ..."  i.e. they murdered, plundered and pillaged without discrimination as to age or sex.
- Alfred chased the Danes but most had embarked before he could catch them.
- But Alfred who had created an English fleet had ordered it to sail to Wareham.
- The English fleet fell upon the retreating Danes and captured some of them.
- Alfred ordered the captured crews to be executed as pirates.
- Ridgeway Hill overlooks Weymouth near Wareham where the Danes had landed.
- The ferocity of the executions fits well with how the locals would have felt.

This story is on page 16 of the book shown at this link ...
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=ci42AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA13&dq=History+Danes+Devon&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FpboUfWSG7GViQechoCoAQ&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAw

There may actually be more such execution sites between Exeter and Wareham.

DSM
 


« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 11:18:11 PM by dsm » Logged

dsm - Sydney Australia
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« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2013, 10:53:31 PM »

Just to add more info the 1st Alfred attack was in the year 789.

But a few years later a 2nd group of Danes from up North (Northumberland), who had signed a peace with Alfred, and bolstered by more Danes from other places (possibly Denmark), invaded the Sth counties by sea again and attacked Exeter once more in the year 793.

Again Alfred came to the rescue but this time caught the Danes before they reached their ships and there was 'great slaughter'.

The 1st attack in 789 better fits the pattern of an execution of captured Danes than the 2nd, but either event still rates as the most likely trigger for the executions as it appears there were no more major incursions or 'raids' as such even though there was more ground warfare when the Danes again attacked England in 1003 after the "St Brice's day massacre" in 1002.  That led to King Knut (Canute) becoming king of England & eventually Scandanaiva.

Back to us P310+ folk, it would be interesting if nay of the corpses showed P310+ thus Sth Baltic source.

DSM
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dsm - Sydney Australia
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