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Author Topic: The First "People of the British Isles" Paper  (Read 23201 times)
Jean M
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« Reply #375 on: July 23, 2012, 05:05:27 PM »

Quote from: sernam link=topic=10025.msg134994#msg134994
IIRC Albion is older  & I thought Britain came about from the Roman usage of it for its territory.

It is a complicated story, which I cover in the Celtic tribes of the British Isles

Quote
Ptolemy gives the names of Roman towns. Yet he retained the old names for the islands: Albion for Britain, and Ierne (Latinised as Hibernia) for Ireland. Albion (white) may refer to the chalk cliffs visible from Gaul. The island group had long been known collectively as the Pretanic or Britanic isles. As Pliny the Elder explained, this included the Orcades (Orkney), the Hæbudes (Hebrides), Mona (Anglesey), Monopia (Isle of Man), and a number of other islands less certainly identifiable from his names. The post-conquest Romans used Britannia or Britannia Magna (Large Britain) for Britain and Hibernia or Britannia Parva (Small Britain) for Ireland. The Irish retained Alba as a name for Britain. It reappeared in the Gaelic Kingdom of Alba in Scotland, and the Gaelic word for Scotsman - Albannach.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:06:10 PM by Jean M » Logged
sernam
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« Reply #376 on: July 23, 2012, 05:06:06 PM »

Maybe they'll let the other three Counties of Ulster in on the vote! No sense in holding on to the old gerrymandered Six Counties!

It wasn't gerrymandering. (Sigh) It was ring-fencing the Protestants who didn't want in to the promised land and showing every sign of violence if they didn't get their own way.

True,  gerrymandering came after partition.
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razyn
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« Reply #377 on: July 23, 2012, 05:08:02 PM »

On the lower left it shows a counter & where visitors are from. The number one visitors are Yankee...

Tennesseans living in Virginia don't consider ourselves Yankees.  We do, however, access that Britannic server from a location in the present USA.
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« Reply #378 on: July 23, 2012, 05:08:40 PM »

Maybe they'll let the other three Counties of Ulster in on the vote! No sense in holding on to the old gerrymandered Six Counties!

It wasn't gerrymandering. (Sigh) It was ring-fencing the Protestants who didn't want in to the promised land and showing every sign of violence if they didn't get their own way.

I would point out though that there was only a Unionist majority in 4 out of 9 counties in Ulster in 1911. Both Tyrone and Fermanagh has Catholic majorities as well as County Councils that has Sinn Féin majorities. The fact that they were included in Northern Ireland was to placate the Unionists, who didn't think it that their statelet would be viable without them. Given the large demographic difference in North-East of Ulster it was a viable option to swallow these two nationlist majority counties without posing any issues to overall demographics in 1921-22.

Of course the really ironic thing is that the Unionist attitude started with the Home Rule act as passed in 1912 this would have created a devolved goverenment in Dublin with less power then what the Scottish parliament currently has.

Of course the fact that elements of the British army mutined (Curragh mutiny) and forced Asquith to back down from proposal to use the British army to prevent any violence from the newly formed UVF who had pledge to fight a fully legal act of Parliament didn't help the matter.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:09:13 PM by Dubhthach » Logged
Jdean
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« Reply #379 on: July 23, 2012, 05:09:48 PM »

I don't know anyone from the north of Ireland, family or friends, who consider themselves British. Not one.

Of course you don't. :)  They are Irish Republicans to a man. (And woman I dare say.)

nationalist is generally more acceptable I believe

Surely they are nationalists both sides of the argument, personally I don't like nationalism very much.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #380 on: July 23, 2012, 05:11:09 PM »

Look, Jean, how about we Irish pull out from all of the areas of Britain that are under Irish rule and the British pull out of all of the parts of Ireland that are under British rule. Fair enough?

Rid yourself of the notion that I want NI to remain in the UK. I don't. Now try to understand that there are millions of people of Irish descent living in Britain. My son married one of them. Her brother lives in Ireland. The people of Britain  and Ireland have been intertwined in many ways for many a long year and there is no way to disentangle those threads by violence.

When did I suggest viloence? I said the Irish give up the parts of Britain that are under Irish rule and the British give up the parts of Ireland that are under British rule. Let it be done at the table. Let there be no viloence involved at all.

Certainly the British people living in Britain under Irish rule have had enough! Free Britain now!
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Jean M
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« Reply #381 on: July 23, 2012, 05:13:23 PM »

nationalist is generally more acceptable I believe

Irish Republican is a perfectly acceptable thing to be. It is legal. It is a political party. Not called that exactly, but its representatives call themselves Irish Republicans all the time. However it is possible that some of Miles's relatives vote a different way. There are various choices.
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Jean M
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« Reply #382 on: July 23, 2012, 05:15:11 PM »

Certainly the British people living in Britain under Irish rule have had enough! Free Britain now!

Yes I know you were joking to lighten the mood Miles, but I'm cheesed off with having you suppose that because I'm a peacenik that means I don't want a united Ireland. I do. OK?
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eochaidh
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« Reply #383 on: July 23, 2012, 05:22:21 PM »

Certainly the British people living in Britain under Irish rule have had enough! Free Britain now!

Yes I know you were joking to lighten the mood Miles, but I'm cheesed off with having you suppose that because I'm a peacenik that means I don't want a united Ireland. I do. OK?

I'm glad that you do, Jean. I wish there were more like you. Siochan (Peace).
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #384 on: July 23, 2012, 05:23:28 PM »

I don't know anyone from the north of Ireland, family or friends, who consider themselves British. Not one.

Of course you don't. :)  They are Irish Republicans to a man. (And woman I dare say.)

nationalist is generally more acceptable I believe

Surely they are nationalists both sides of the argument, personally I don't like nationalism very much.

There's an actual semantic difference in terms of Northern Ireland which has connections to both Class and involvement in conflict.

Nationalist = Catholic middle class -- votes SDLP, constitutionalism in outlook, believes in peaceful united Ireland via consent etc.
Republican = Catholic working class -- votes Sinn Féin, supports armed struggle

Unionist = Protestant middle class -- votes UUP, DUP, -- believes in maintaining the Union , forces of law and order etc.
Loyalist = Protestant working class -- votes (sometimes?) -- believes in use of armed force in prevention of a united Ireland.

Now the above are caricatures in a sense, and probably more relevant in meaning to the period before 1994, however the four head words do have specific meanings when it comes to usage. You would never call a Loyalist ex-UVF paramiltary a nationalist (even if he was a "British nationalist" at that)
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sernam
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« Reply #385 on: July 23, 2012, 05:27:30 PM »

On the lower left it shows a counter & where visitors are from. The number one visitors are Yankee...

Tennesseans living in Virginia don't consider ourselves Yankees.  We do, however, access that Britannic server from a location in the present USA.

lol relax there Johnny Sessesh you gained the honor of calling yourself Yankee  once you became reconstructed ;)

I don't know anyone from the north of Ireland, family or friends, who consider themselves British. Not one.

Of course you don't. :)  They are Irish Republicans to a man. (And woman I dare say.)

nationalist is generally more acceptable I believe

Surely they are nationalists both sides of the argument, personally I don't like nationalism very much.

unionist is generally in use for people supporting union.

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Jdean
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« Reply #386 on: July 23, 2012, 05:28:18 PM »

I don't know anyone from the north of Ireland, family or friends, who consider themselves British. Not one.

Of course you don't. :)  They are Irish Republicans to a man. (And woman I dare say.)

nationalist is generally more acceptable I believe

Surely they are nationalists both sides of the argument, personally I don't like nationalism very much.

There's an actual semantic difference in terms of Northern Ireland which has connections to both Class and involvement in conflict.

Nationalist = Catholic middle class -- votes SDLP, constitutionalism in outlook, believes in peaceful united Ireland via consent etc.
Republican = Catholic working class -- votes Sinn Féin, supports armed struggle

Unionist = Protestant middle class -- votes UUP, DUP, -- believes in maintaining the Union , forces of law and order etc.
Loyalist = Protestant working class -- votes (sometimes?) -- believes in use of armed force in prevention of a united Ireland.

Now the above are caricatures in a sense, and probably more relevant in meaning to the period before 1994, however the four head words do have specific meanings when it comes to usage. You would never call a Loyalist ex-UVF paramiltary a nationalist (even if he was a "British nationalist" at that)

I learnt to distinguish the N. Irish accent in my early teens and not to call them anything, very poor sense of humour.
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rms2
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« Reply #387 on: July 23, 2012, 05:28:53 PM »

I'm starting to get the feeling that this thread may have ceased to serve a useful, genetic genealogy-related purpose and has now gone down the wrong path into an unprofitable political and sociological maze.

I may shut it down if it doesn't right itself soon.

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sernam
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« Reply #388 on: July 23, 2012, 05:36:01 PM »

 Well I was hoping at one point to find out more about the associations of MC1R variants w different populations but suddenly it became a sensitive semantics argument
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:36:38 PM by sernam » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #389 on: July 23, 2012, 05:38:30 PM »

Well I was hoping at one point to find out more about the associations of MC1R variants w different populations but suddenly it became a sensitive semantics argument


Have I got a thread for you!

Red Hair and Family Finder

It's over in the autosomal dna subforum.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #390 on: July 23, 2012, 05:51:52 PM »

Albion, hmmm as in the William Blake version or the derivation of Alba, which would again require us to visit Ireland to know its origins and to whom it described.

Someone hs probably already pointed this out (I havent read to the bottom of the thread yet) but Albion is mentioned along with Ierne in a text with roots in the 6th century BC which is pre-La Tene times in isles terms.  Albion and Erne became poetic terms used in literature and in rosey ballads but they are very ancient indeed.  As for Irish sources, the problem is they date mainly to 1000-1500 years after the first mention of the term Albion in the 6th century BC so the meaning of Alba had changed radically by then to mean Scotland.  It originally meant all of Great Britain. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #391 on: July 23, 2012, 06:11:26 PM »

I have friends from all parts of Britain. I was born here, live here & have spent years working around various parts of the country. When it comes to a vote, most in Northern Ireland & Scotland choose to stay united. The case is similar in Australia, where the most recent vote saw the Queen retained as Head of State.
There will always be some who are unhappy whatever the majority wish. I agree with Jean D that there are strong prejudices on view here.
As I said earlier, the English, Irish, Welsh & Scots I know all get on fine with each other. We live for the moment. I'm guessing that many on these forums aren't from these 'islands' & have a different view. Most people I know want a quiet, peaceful life.
Very sad that others don't.
Cheers
Bob (on pint no 3)

Very big difference between peace and freedom, Bob.

I don't know anyone from the north of Ireland, family or friends, who consider themselves British. Not one. Then again, Ballymurph and The Falls Rd., Belfast, and Swatragh, Co. Derry might not be the best place to ask. My friends in family are Irish and Irish only. Oddly enough, they live in Ireland.

Fair enough but its a 50-50 divide if you mix evenly and freely without reference to religion etc in NI.   Regardless, one thing I think people dont realise is there are three groups in NI.  There are largley segregatted villages and estates of one religion/national identity or the other.  However there is a large and growing third group of people who dont live in one-religion ghettos and freely mix and marry out of their group and live in mixed areas.  They generally do not take a hard line bitter angle on either side and know the only way forward is to soften all this and move forward into the future rather than dwell on the past.  They are the future of the place.  The real future is intergrating into one sort of shared less mono-ethnic idenity.  This will come as people cease living ghetto type lives and intermarry of course so they really actually do have mixed heritages.  There is no future in trying to 'win' the Irish v British identity historical divide.  The whole idea of winning and another side losing was finally realised to be a one way ticket to perpetual misery.  Personally I think the zealots and absolutists who ever thought that the problem of a block of 1.5-2 million people split by religion/heritage roughly 50-50 is going to be solved by a simple 100% Irish or 100% British rule solution where one side wins and one side loses is mad. No matter who is in charge or whether the border exists or not, the reality is that the area of land that is NI will remain a place with a 50-50 sort of split in heritage unlike the rest of Ireland. That is why people accepted the Good Friday Agreement and related changes because it was a sort of blurry compromise.  That has made most people happy except maybe about 20% of the population made up of absolutists and extremists on both sides, usually people in ghettos who never mix with the other 50% of the population and demonise them.  In general though people who get themselves an eductation, get out of the ghettos, mixed with people of the other religion, have other things to live for etc lose the hard line absolutism.  Hard line-ism and lingering paramilitarism flourishes in the very poor estates.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 06:12:38 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
whoknows
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« Reply #392 on: July 23, 2012, 06:14:40 PM »

That's interesting information, certainly Albion would be a more sensitive and fairer choice than the 'British Isles', would you on this occasion kindly provide details of that source, be most interested to  examine that. Is it possible for this title of this thread to be amended to take into account the various questions raised on the subject? How about 'A Paper Speculating On The First Peoples Of The Lands Of Hyper-borea'? :)

« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 06:15:38 PM by whoknows » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #393 on: July 23, 2012, 06:26:32 PM »

I have friends from all parts of Britain. I was born here, live here & have spent years working around various parts of the country. When it comes to a vote, most in Northern Ireland & Scotland choose to stay united. The case is similar in Australia, where the most recent vote saw the Queen retained as Head of State.
There will always be some who are unhappy whatever the majority wish. I agree with Jean D that there are strong prejudices on view here.
As I said earlier, the English, Irish, Welsh & Scots I know all get on fine with each other. We live for the moment. I'm guessing that many on these forums aren't from these 'islands' & have a different view. Most people I know want a quiet, peaceful life.
Very sad that others don't.
Cheers
Bob (on pint no 3)

Very big difference between peace and freedom, Bob.

I don't know anyone from the north of Ireland, family or friends, who consider themselves British. Not one. Then again, Ballymurph and The Falls Rd., Belfast, and Swatragh, Co. Derry might not be the best place to ask. My friends in family are Irish and Irish only. Oddly enough, they live in Ireland.

Fair enough but its a 50-50 divide if you mix evenly and freely without reference to religion etc in NI.   Regardless, one thing I think people dont realise is there are three groups in NI.  There are largley segregatted villages and estates of one religion/national identity or the other.  However there is a large and growing third group of people who dont live in one-religion ghettos and freely mix and marry out of their group and live in mixed areas.  They generally do not take a hard line bitter angle on either side and know the only way forward is to soften all this and move forward into the future rather than dwell on the past.  They are the future of the place.  The real future is intergrating into one sort of shared less mono-ethnic idenity.  This will come as people cease living ghetto type lives and intermarry of course so they really actually do have mixed heritages.  There is no future in trying to 'win' the Irish v British identity historical divide.  The whole idea of winning and another side losing was finally realised to be a one way ticket to perpetual misery.  Personally I think the zealots and absolutists who ever thought that the problem of a block of 1.5-2 million people split by religion/heritage roughly 50-50 is going to be solved by a simple 100% Irish or 100% British rule solution where one side wins and one side loses is mad. No matter who is in charge or whether the border exists or not, the reality is that the area of land that is NI will remain a place with a 50-50 sort of split in heritage unlike the rest of Ireland. That is why people accepted the Good Friday Agreement and related changes because it was a sort of blurry compromise.  That has made most people happy except maybe about 20% of the population made up of absolutists and extremists on both sides, usually people in ghettos who never mix with the other 50% of the population and demonise them.  In general though people who get themselves an eductation, get out of the ghettos, mixed with people of the other religion, have other things to live for etc lose the hard line absolutism.  Hard line-ism and lingering paramilitarism flourishes in the very poor estates.

Alan,

I think anyone who doesn't believe that Ireland should be a 32 County Irish Republic is a hard line British Nationalist.
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rms2
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« Reply #394 on: July 23, 2012, 06:30:12 PM »

Sorry folks.

Gotta close this one.
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