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eochaidh
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« Reply #350 on: July 23, 2012, 01:17:56 PM »

Has anybody recently looked at the "People of the British Isles" website?  Which is what this thread was nominally about, way back in... eleven months ago.  Anyway, over on the right side of the screen there's a map of their "British Isles," and it looks unabashedly political.  It's not what an astronaut might see from space; nor is it what our pre-Christian, comfortably idolatrous Copper Age forebears would have seen from a boat, optimistically northbound from... someplace.  In fact, it's pretty much what I get (within the white lines) when I enter "United Kingdom" in Google Maps.

One is led to believe that somebody already had this tedious discussion, settled on the verbiage they would use, drew that peculiarly truncated map (to fit the said verbiage) -- and went ahead with a project they could do, as distinguished from a more comprehensive Isles project they might prefer to do.

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/

And btw I see they are collecting DNA samples in Yorkshire, this week.  Good for them.  That's almost certainly more useful to their research needs, and (in a second-hand way) to ours, than endlessly arguing about who has most grievously wronged whom within recent memory, or recorded history.  Because with a few known exceptions, most of the SNP stuff had already happened well before the political and religious stuff that has bequeathed to us these funny maps, and tedious arguments.

Oh, okay, I see.... the British Isles are the island of Britain and the British Occupied Counties of Ulster. So, truly, the term British Isles only refers to one island and a small part of the other.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #351 on: July 23, 2012, 02:15:06 PM »

I honestly don't think anyone's deliberately trying to upset anyone else. I don't think the heavy political references are helpful, either.
The Irish lads I know are great lads & we have a good laugh together - usually accompanied by more pints than are good for my liver. The banter about rugby & other topics is given & received in good humour.
We've never got involved in raking over the past. Live for today is the motto. Eat, drink & be merry!
As Ringo Starr was fond of saying: "Peace & love!"
Cheers,
Bob (on pint number two)
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whoknows
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« Reply #352 on: July 23, 2012, 02:25:24 PM »

Well truth be told the two largest islands that comprise what Geography terms the 'British Isles' are Ireland and??? hmmm we get into choppy water here because England is not an island on its own, nor is Wales, and not Scotland. Within that area there's only one large land surrounded by sea that can be truly said to be island and comprised of one nation (albeit part still controlled by another government) with a distinct culture and language, and that is Ireland. For anyone interested in untangling the gordion know of what 'Britain' actually is there could be much knowledge gained by examining the history of the term itself. Not the names ascribed by Roman or Greek geographers, or later medieval descriptions, but the political history of the name and how with the dominance of England over its neighboring countries the construction of a 'Union' and a sense of 'British-ness' came into being, that continues to cause confusion and unease to this day.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 02:26:49 PM by whoknows » Logged
sernam
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« Reply #353 on: July 23, 2012, 02:26:50 PM »

Has anybody recently looked at the "People of the British Isles" website?  Which is what this thread was nominally about, way back in... eleven months ago.  Anyway, over on the right side of the screen there's a map of their "British Isles," and it looks unabashedly political.  It's not what an astronaut might see from space; nor is it what our pre-Christian, comfortably idolatrous Copper Age forebears would have seen from a boat, optimistically northbound from... someplace.  In fact, it's pretty much what I get (within the white lines) when I enter "United Kingdom" in Google Maps.

One is led to believe that somebody already had this tedious discussion, settled on the verbiage they would use, drew that peculiarly truncated map (to fit the said verbiage) -- and went ahead with a project they could do, as distinguished from a more comprehensive Isles project they might prefer to do.

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/

And btw I see they are collecting DNA samples in Yorkshire, this week.  Good for them.  That's almost certainly more useful to their research needs, and (in a second-hand way) to ours, than endlessly arguing about who has most grievously wronged whom within recent memory, or recorded history.  Because with a few known exceptions, most of the SNP stuff had already happened well before the political and religious stuff that has bequeathed to us these funny maps, and tedious arguments.

Not just that. On the lower left it shows a counter & where visitors are from. The number one visitors are Yankee # 2 being UK & # 3 being UK, I smell a plot.


I just think it's for convenient area loctions to contact the project…..

 but you never know!
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sernam
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« Reply #354 on: July 23, 2012, 02:31:36 PM »

Well truth be told the two largest islands that comprise what Geography terms the 'British Isles' are Ireland and???
Albion
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Heber
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« Reply #355 on: July 23, 2012, 02:34:16 PM »

I signed up for the Irish DNA Atlas project and asked the "People of the British Isles" project if they would extend their research to include the Irish project. They replied that it was a good idea and I hope they make it happen. It does not make any sense to separate the two research results.

Q. "Will the analysis allow you to identify various populations such as Celts, Saxons, Vikings, Mesolithic Settlers, Neolithic Settlers and have you any plans to integrate results from the Ireland DNA Atlas project to give a total picture for the Isles?"

A. "Hi Gerard,

By comparing our UK samples to other European Countries, we are able to get an understanding of the relative contributions these different Countries have had to the various genetic groups that we have found in the UK.  We can certainly define genetically distinct groups in the UK according to our analysis but assigning the differences to particular historical events  can be very difficult.  For example, the Norse Viking influence is obvious, whilst differentiating between the effect of Anglo-Saxon and Danish Viking invasions and the long term peopling of the southeast over the last 12,000 years is much harder to do.

You are right in that we do need to collaborate with other projects and researchers, in particular in Ireland, to get a fuller picture of the British Isles and this is something we hope to do sometime in the future."
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whoknows
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« Reply #356 on: July 23, 2012, 02:37:54 PM »

Albion, hmmm as in the William Blake version or the derivation of Alba, which would again require us to visit Ireland to know its origins and to whom it described.
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Jdean
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« Reply #357 on: July 23, 2012, 03:02:01 PM »

Well truth be told the two largest islands that comprise what Geography terms the 'British Isles' are Ireland and??? hmmm we get into choppy water here because England is not an island on its own, nor is Wales, and not Scotland. Within that area there's only one large land surrounded by sea that can be truly said to be island and comprised of one nation (albeit part still controlled by another government) with a distinct culture and language, and that is Ireland. For anyone interested in untangling the gordion know of what 'Britain' actually is there could be much knowledge gained by examining the history of the term itself. Not the names ascribed by Roman or Greek geographers, or later medieval descriptions, but the political history of the name and how with the dominance of England over its neighboring countries the construction of a 'Union' and a sense of 'British-ness' came into being, that continues to cause confusion and unease to this day.

Speaking as a non English Brit I can definitely say I'm not confused. My father in law who is also a non English Brit (I can say that as a fact since I asked him and he clearly considers himself both Welsh and British) was a little confused but only because of the question. Later this week I shall be meeting some Scots, and I shall ask them if they consider themselves British, I'd be surprised if they said no. I also know that many people in Northern Ireland also consider themselves British, are we all wrong and should we consider ourselves something else ?
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whoknows
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« Reply #358 on: July 23, 2012, 03:15:12 PM »

A perception is just that, meanwhile the geographic and historical facts remain, it was an economically and militarily dominant England that  imposed upon the Welsh and Scots the notion of a 'Britain', of which they were supposed to be grateful for being junior members. Of course that happened some time ago and the waters of peace and friendship have now flowed sufficiently to convince a number of generations that what was a cynical political fabrication, (ie: 'Britain') exists as some sort of harmonious union reaching back into antiquity.  The truth of course is another story.
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Jdean
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« Reply #359 on: July 23, 2012, 03:27:22 PM »

A perception is just that, meanwhile the geographic and historical facts remain, it was an economically and militarily dominant England that  imposed upon the Welsh and Scots the notion of a 'Britain', of which they were supposed to be grateful for being junior members. Of course that happened some time ago and the waters of peace and friendship have now flowed sufficiently to convince a number of generations that what was a cynical political fabrication, (ie: 'Britain') exists as some sort of harmonious union reaching back into antiquity.  The truth of course is another story.

I think the truth is you have some sort of prejudice.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #360 on: July 23, 2012, 03:40:12 PM »

I have friends from all parts of Britain. I was born here, live here & have spent years working around various parts of the country. When it comes to a vote, most in Northern Ireland & Scotland choose to stay united. The case is similar in Australia, where the most recent vote saw the Queen retained as Head of State.
There will always be some who are unhappy whatever the majority wish. I agree with Jean D that there are strong prejudices on view here.
As I said earlier, the English, Irish, Welsh & Scots I know all get on fine with each other. We live for the moment. I'm guessing that many on these forums aren't from these 'islands' & have a different view. Most people I know want a quiet, peaceful life.
Very sad that others don't.
Cheers
Bob (on pint no 3)
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Jean M
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« Reply #361 on: July 23, 2012, 04:17:23 PM »

A perception is just that, meanwhile the geographic and historical facts remain, it was an economically and militarily dominant England that  imposed upon the Welsh and Scots the notion of a 'Britain', ....exists as some sort of harmonious union reaching back into antiquity.  The truth of course is another story.

Huh? England certainly was militarily dominant. (That sprang from the fact that it was economically dominant and had a far higher population.) England certainly has behaved really badly towards every part of the Celtic fringe at various times. However that has absolutely nothing to do with the name Britain, which goes back to Celtic days.

As an historian I aim to look facts in the face and speak the truth as I find it. The  horrible swaggering superiority complex of Anglos at their worst makes me sick. But I am not going to re-write history to be whatever people today see as more PC. These islands were called the Bretanic Isles (or something similar) by the very earliest literate visitors. Rome grabbed a large part of the largest island  (the best land for wheat and with handy tin and lead sources), and turned that into the Roman province of Britannia. By the sheer chance that they didn't push on to the north coast of it, they in effect created Scotland. Wales managed to keep out of the hands of the Anglo-Saxons long enough to create its own identity. But the big island was Britain before the Romans and Anglo-Saxons created divisions. It remained Britain geographically.

If you actually knew any Welsh or Scots, you would be aware that what gets their goat is being called English. They are British not English. They can be very emphatic about that.

 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 04:23:37 PM by Jean M » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #362 on: July 23, 2012, 04:23:00 PM »

I have friends from all parts of Britain. I was born here, live here & have spent years working around various parts of the country. When it comes to a vote, most in Northern Ireland & Scotland choose to stay united. The case is similar in Australia, where the most recent vote saw the Queen retained as Head of State.
There will always be some who are unhappy whatever the majority wish. I agree with Jean D that there are strong prejudices on view here.
As I said earlier, the English, Irish, Welsh & Scots I know all get on fine with each other. We live for the moment. I'm guessing that many on these forums aren't from these 'islands' & have a different view. Most people I know want a quiet, peaceful life.
Very sad that others don't.
Cheers
Bob (on pint no 3)

Very big difference between peace and freedom, Bob.

I don't know anyone from the north of Ireland, family or friends, who consider themselves British. Not one. Then again, Ballymurphy and The Falls Rd., Belfast, and Swatragh, Co. Derry might not be the best place to ask. My friends in family are Irish and Irish only. Oddly enough, they live in Ireland.
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Jean M
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« Reply #363 on: July 23, 2012, 04:31:51 PM »

@ eochaidh

No problem. Your folks have the vote. Gerry Adams seems pretty sure that one day there will be enough people in Northern Ireland voting for a united Ireland to make it happen. The gun and the bomb have been laid down. They didn't work. Quite the opposite. Shooting and bombing people tends to make them feel that you are not a friendly face and the kind of person they can trust and want to live with.

Reconciliation and getting the two warring communities to act together and get on with running the place is far more likely to produce the desired result. This may seem a sissy way of doing things to you. But it works.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #364 on: July 23, 2012, 04:35:42 PM »

@ eochaidh

No problem. Your folks have the vote. Gerry Adams seems pretty sure that one day there will be enough people in Northern Ireland voting for a united Ireland to make it happen. The gun and the bomb have been laid down. They didn't work. Quite the opposite. Shooting and bombing people tends to make them feel that you are not a friendly face and the kind of person they can trust and want to live with.

Reconciliation and getting the two warring communities to act together and get on with running the place is far more likely to produce the desired result. This may seem a sissy way of doing things to you. But it works.

Hey! Maybe they'll let the other three Counties of Ulster in on the vote! No sense in holding on to the old gerrymandered Six Counties!

EDIT:  And you're right about the guns and bombs.... I don't think the Brits ever once used force in Ireland. Well, you know.... British people are civilised and those Irish are simply barbaric!
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Jean M
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« Reply #365 on: July 23, 2012, 04:40:54 PM »

I don't know anyone from the north of Ireland, family or friends, who consider themselves British. Not one.

Of course you don't. :)  They are Irish Republicans to a man. (And woman I dare say.) As you know full well it is the Protestants fervently declaring themselves British in terror of being dumped as a religious minority in what Rev. Paisley saw as a nation governed by priests. Their shouts of British nationality would raise the roof, but they don't exactly fit the pattern of British life as lived in the big island. For a start people over here have mainly ceased getting excited about religion.  
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Jean M
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« Reply #366 on: July 23, 2012, 04:43:38 PM »

Maybe they'll let the other three Counties of Ulster in on the vote! No sense in holding on to the old gerrymandered Six Counties!

It wasn't gerrymandering. (Sigh) It was ring-fencing the Protestants who didn't want in to the promised land and showing every sign of violence if they didn't get their own way.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #367 on: July 23, 2012, 04:44:17 PM »

I don't know anyone from the north of Ireland, family or friends, who consider themselves British. Not one.

Of course you don't. :)  They are Irish Republicans to a man. (And woman I dare say.) As you know full well it is the Protestants fervently declaring themselves British in terror of being dumped as a religious minority in what Rev. Paisley saw as a nation governed by priests. Their shouts of British nationality would raise the roof, but they don't exactly fit the pattern of British life as lived in the big island. For a start people over here have mainly ceased getting excited about religion.  

You needn't be an "Irish Republican" to be born and raised in the north of Ireland and consider yourself Irish only.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #368 on: July 23, 2012, 04:46:16 PM »

Look, Jean, how about we Irish pull out from all of the areas of Britain that are under Irish rule and the British pull out of all of the parts of Ireland that are under British rule. Fair enough?

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Jean M
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« Reply #369 on: July 23, 2012, 04:48:57 PM »

EDIT:  And you're right about the guns and bombs.... I don't think the Brits ever once used force in Ireland. Well, you know.... British people are civilised and those Irish are simply barbaric!

Do leave off. None of the various parties to the Troubles has clean hands. The Ulster paramilitaries were as bad as the republican variety. The British troops have black marks on their name. The whole thing was so terrible a time that most people in NI have welcomed peace. You may not have done. But then you haven't had to live through it. Have some faith in Gerry Adams.
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Jean M
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« Reply #370 on: July 23, 2012, 04:54:44 PM »

Look, Jean, how about we Irish pull out from all of the areas of Britain that are under Irish rule and the British pull out of all of the parts of Ireland that are under British rule. Fair enough?

Rid yourself of the notion that I want NI to remain in the UK. I don't. Now try to understand that there are millions of people of Irish descent living in Britain. My son married one of them. Her brother lives in Ireland. The people of Britain  and Ireland have been intertwined in many ways for many a long year and there is no way to disentangle those threads by violence.
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sernam
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« Reply #371 on: July 23, 2012, 05:00:26 PM »

Well truth be told the two largest islands that comprise what Geography terms the 'British Isles' are Ireland and??? hmmm we get into choppy water here because England is not an island on its own, nor is Wales, and not Scotland. Within that area there's only one large land surrounded by sea that can be truly said to be island and comprised of one nation (albeit part still controlled by another government) with a distinct culture and language, and that is Ireland. For anyone interested in untangling the gordion know of what 'Britain' actually is there could be much knowledge gained by examining the history of the term itself. Not the names ascribed by Roman or Greek geographers, or later medieval descriptions, but the political history of the name and how with the dominance of England over its neighboring countries the construction of a 'Union' and a sense of 'British-ness' came into being, that continues to cause confusion and unease to this day.

Speaking as a non English Brit I can definitely say I'm not confused. My father in law who is also a non English Brit (I can say that as a fact since I asked him and he clearly considers himself both Welsh and British) was a little confused but only because of the question. Later this week I shall be meeting some Scots, and I shall ask them if they consider themselves British, I'd be surprised if they said no. I also know that many people in Northern Ireland also consider themselves British, are we all wrong and should we consider ourselves something else ?

IIRC ironically it's a source of annoyment for some Scots since Brit is now generally seen as equivalent to Englishman.

As for NI, people are British by ancestry, like black Americans sometimes use African or by the expedient of referring incorrectly to the UK of GB&NI as Britain but obviously tjey're not really in or a part of Britain.

Albion, hmmm as in the William Blake version or the derivation of Alba, which would again require us to visit Ireland to know its origins and to whom it described.

It was from long before Blake & even before Pythias de Marseille

A perception is just that, meanwhile the geographic and historical facts remain, it was an economically and militarily dominant England that  imposed upon the Welsh and Scots the notion of a 'Britain', ....exists as some sort of harmonious union reaching back into antiquity.  The truth of course is another story.

Huh? England certainly was militarily dominant. (That sprang from the fact that it was economically dominant and had a far higher population.) England certainly has behaved really badly towards every part of the Celtic fringe at various times. However that has absolutely nothing to do with the name Britain, which goes back to Celtic days.

As an historian I aim to look facts in the face and speak the truth as I find it. The  horrible swaggering superiority complex of Anglos at their worst makes me sick. But I am not going to re-write history to be whatever people today see as more PC. These islands were called the Bretanic Isles (or something similar) by the very earliest literate visitors. Rome grabbed a large part of the largest island  (the best land for wheat and with handy tin and lead sources), and turned that into the Roman province of Britannia. By the sheer chance that they didn't push on to the north coast of it, they in effect created Scotland. Wales managed to keep out of the hands of the Anglo-Saxons long enough to create its own identity. But the big island was Britain before the Romans and Anglo-Saxons created divisions. It remained Britain geographically.

If you actually knew any Welsh or Scots, you would be aware that what gets their goat is being called English. They are British not English. They can be very emphatic about that.

 
IIRC Albion is older  & I thought Britain came about from the Roman usage of it for its territory.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:01:31 PM by sernam » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #372 on: July 23, 2012, 05:00:59 PM »

You needn't be an "Irish Republican" to be born and raised in the north of Ireland and consider yourself Irish only.

Most English people regard the people of Northern Ireland as Irish. If you object to "Irish Republican" let's say if your relatives and friends are not Orangemen then they are not likely to be firmly declaring themselves British at every turn. They sensibly regard themselves as Irish.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:08:06 PM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #373 on: July 23, 2012, 05:01:55 PM »

I always look to more learned people when dealing with international relations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1hcfKAcxC0
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« Reply #374 on: July 23, 2012, 05:04:06 PM »

I don't know anyone from the north of Ireland, family or friends, who consider themselves British. Not one.

Of course you don't. :)  They are Irish Republicans to a man. (And woman I dare say.)

nationalist is generally more acceptable I believe
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