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A_Wode
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« Reply #325 on: July 22, 2012, 08:10:50 PM »

There are too many painful associations with the term 'British' and entirely understand any people in Ireland who feel an unease on the matter. It may well be that a rose can be named in many ways, but the scent of oppression, injustice and bloody occupation by 'British' forces remains far too potent to allow a relaxed and liberal tolerance that some may enjoy on the subject from the relative comforts of North America. The wounds have not healed to the extent that the term has lost entirely the ability to evoke Ireland's struggle to establish a free nation, nor the vicious occupation and cultural suppression that over a considerable period was enforced by order of the British state. Given the context, history and yes a visceral sense of memory and injustice felt by some it is hardly surprising to note the reaction at being too closely associated with the name of those who were so responsible for the nightmare visited upon Eire and its people. Perhaps those who are too ready to assert the opinion that certain Haplogroups in Ireland are derived from English colonists should contemplate such aspects as it may prove informative in understanding just one reason why such claims are not welcomed, apart from other inherent flaws or lack of evidence.

My wounds haven't healed from the French Catholics who single handedly wiped out large portions of my family tree either, and forced the survivors into exile in England. I consider myself of both English and British ancestries. If Irish folk think they are the sole victims in this plight then they are sorely mistaken.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 08:11:30 PM by A_Wode » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #326 on: July 22, 2012, 08:24:54 PM »

There are too many painful associations with the term 'British' and entirely understand any people in Ireland who feel an unease on the matter. It may well be that a rose can be named in many ways, but the scent of oppression, injustice and bloody occupation by 'British' forces remains far too potent to allow a relaxed and liberal tolerance that some may enjoy on the subject from the relative comforts of North America. The wounds have not healed to the extent that the term has lost entirely the ability to evoke Ireland's struggle to establish a free nation, nor the vicious occupation and cultural suppression that over a considerable period was enforced by order of the British state. Given the context, history and yes a visceral sense of memory and injustice felt by some it is hardly surprising to note the reaction at being too closely associated with the name of those who were so responsible for the nightmare visited upon Eire and its people. Perhaps those who are too ready to assert the opinion that certain Haplogroups in Ireland are derived from English colonists should contemplate such aspects as it may prove informative in understanding just one reason why such claims are not welcomed, apart from other inherent flaws or lack of evidence.

I think we understand the "not welcomed" part very well indeed. That is the crux of the matter.

.

All I will say is Ireland swarmed with Vikings and had loads of Normans and Hibernicised Norman families who became clans, if anything I think the yDNA impact seems underestimated and rarely sought due to to the idea that pre-Viking=the natives while post-Vikings are not. This is the problem with drawing an artificial line between natives and blow ins.  It looks like most of us are blow ins on the Y lines, just blow ins in the Bronze Age rather than 1200AD, 1600AD etc.  DNA appears to show that few of our Y DNA lines have been in Ireland before 2500BC while the island has been settled since 8000BC.
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« Reply #327 on: July 22, 2012, 08:30:05 PM »

There are too many painful associations with the term 'British' and entirely understand any people in Ireland who feel an unease on the matter. It may well be that a rose can be named in many ways, but the scent of oppression, injustice and bloody occupation by 'British' forces remains far too potent to allow a relaxed and liberal tolerance that some may enjoy on the subject from the relative comforts of North America. The wounds have not healed to the extent that the term has lost entirely the ability to evoke Ireland's struggle to establish a free nation, nor the vicious occupation and cultural suppression that over a considerable period was enforced by order of the British state. Given the context, history and yes a visceral sense of memory and injustice felt by some it is hardly surprising to note the reaction at being too closely associated with the name of those who were so responsible for the nightmare visited upon Eire and its people. Perhaps those who are too ready to assert the opinion that certain Haplogroups in Ireland are derived from English colonists should contemplate such aspects as it may prove informative in understanding just one reason why such claims are not welcomed, apart from other inherent flaws or lack of evidence.

My wounds haven't healed from the French Catholics who single handedly wiped out large portions of my family tree either, and forced the survivors into exile in England. I consider myself of both English and British ancestries. If Irish folk think they are the sole victims in this plight then they are sorely mistaken.

Yep both sides were butchers in the religious wars of Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries.  Tookl far too long for the idea of freedom of concience to really catch on.  Seems crazy now but that is the problem when both sides thought god was on their side.
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rms2
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« Reply #328 on: July 22, 2012, 08:48:38 PM »

There are too many painful associations with the term 'British' and entirely understand any people in Ireland who feel an unease on the matter. It may well be that a rose can be named in many ways, but the scent of oppression, injustice and bloody occupation by 'British' forces remains far too potent to allow a relaxed and liberal tolerance that some may enjoy on the subject from the relative comforts of North America. The wounds have not healed to the extent that the term has lost entirely the ability to evoke Ireland's struggle to establish a free nation, nor the vicious occupation and cultural suppression that over a considerable period was enforced by order of the British state. Given the context, history and yes a visceral sense of memory and injustice felt by some it is hardly surprising to note the reaction at being too closely associated with the name of those who were so responsible for the nightmare visited upon Eire and its people. Perhaps those who are too ready to assert the opinion that certain Haplogroups in Ireland are derived from English colonists should contemplate such aspects as it may prove informative in understanding just one reason why such claims are not welcomed, apart from other inherent flaws or lack of evidence.

I think we understand the "not welcomed" part very well indeed. That is the crux of the matter.

.

All I will say is Ireland swarmed with Vikings and had loads of Normans and Hibernicised Norman families who became clans, if anything I think the yDNA impact seems underestimated and rarely sought due to to the idea that pre-Viking=the natives while post-Vikings are not. This is the problem with drawing an artificial line between natives and blow ins.  It looks like most of us are blow ins on the Y lines, just blow ins in the Bronze Age rather than 1200AD, 1600AD etc.  DNA appears to show that few of our Y DNA lines have been in Ireland before 2500BC while the island has been settled since 8000BC.

Yeah, I know. It's not a line I draw or even care much about.

I have spent a great deal of my time since I got my first 37-marker y-dna results arguing that all of us R1b guys are "blow-ins" in Europe and not Cro-Magnon aborigines. And you know how that has gone. A lot of folks really liked that "whitest of the white guys" status.

I also think it is important to know the actual history of one's y haplogroup, not to cull the "non-natives" from the "natives", but just because it's interesting to know the truth. It's also just inherently important because the truth is the truth. When a y haplogroup finding is "not welcomed", it's that status that becomes the "inherent flaw".

And an ounce of "not welcomed" wipes out a ton of evidence.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 08:50:22 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #329 on: July 22, 2012, 08:54:29 PM »

There are too many painful associations with the term 'British' and entirely understand any people in Ireland who feel an unease on the matter. It may well be that a rose can be named in many ways, but the scent of oppression, injustice and bloody occupation by 'British' forces remains far too potent to allow a relaxed and liberal tolerance that some may enjoy on the subject from the relative comforts of North America. The wounds have not healed to the extent that the term has lost entirely the ability to evoke Ireland's struggle to establish a free nation, nor the vicious occupation and cultural suppression that over a considerable period was enforced by order of the British state. Given the context, history and yes a visceral sense of memory and injustice felt by some it is hardly surprising to note the reaction at being too closely associated with the name of those who were so responsible for the nightmare visited upon Eire and its people. Perhaps those who are too ready to assert the opinion that certain Haplogroups in Ireland are derived from English colonists should contemplate such aspects as it may prove informative in understanding just one reason why such claims are not welcomed, apart from other inherent flaws or lack of evidence.

My wounds haven't healed from the French Catholics who single handedly wiped out large portions of my family tree either, and forced the survivors into exile in England. I consider myself of both English and British ancestries. If Irish folk think they are the sole victims in this plight then they are sorely mistaken.

Yep both sides were butchers in the religious wars of Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries.  Tookl far too long for the idea of freedom of concience to really catch on.  Seems crazy now but that is the problem when both sides thought god was on their side.

There were also some on both sides who called for tolerance and peace. Sadly, no one listened to them.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 08:54:49 PM by rms2 » Logged

samIsaack
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« Reply #330 on: July 22, 2012, 09:17:53 PM »

This Posting Was Deleted.   Terry

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« Reply #331 on: July 22, 2012, 09:58:27 PM »

I'm not sure who were the first people of the British Isles.

Recently I did find something in the news interesting. A pre-Roman olive stone found in England.

"Iron Age Britons were importing olives from the Mediterranean a century before the Romans arrived with their exotic tastes in food, say archaeologists who have discovered a single olive stone from an excavation of an Iron Age well at at Silchester in Hampshire."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/19/olive-stone-pre-roman-britain?newsfeed=true
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Terry Barton
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« Reply #332 on: July 22, 2012, 11:04:56 PM »

I suspect that every one of us has some terrible history in our ancestry that distresses us.  Most of us probably also have some political opinion that can inflame another reader. This Forum is not the place for either.

Please keep away from the inflammatory stuff so that this thread can continue. 

Thanks, Terry
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« Reply #333 on: July 23, 2012, 04:55:47 AM »

A timely reminder and well noted :)
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Castlebob
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« Reply #334 on: July 23, 2012, 06:59:29 AM »

I feel we shouldn't get into the debate about who was most wronged. Most peoples have been at some stage. How far back in history should we go before we stop harbouring hatred? Should those with Brythonic Celt roots detest the descendants of the Roman invaders? Should the Pictish descendants in Scotland harbour grudges against the Irish Scotti invaders? Should the inhabitants of Scotland, England, Wales & Ireland reawaken animosity to the Scandinavian raiders' descendants?
Part of me naively thought that DNA might demonstrate how closely we all interlink, and that might help ease any historical tensions. However, I now feel that we will all split into factions once we know our tribal identities. I imagine we'll reach a stage when forums are battlegrounds for Picts v Scots, Brythonic Celts v Saxons etc, etc.
I'm constantly under attack from my wife, but that's another matter!!! (Just joking, by the way!)
Cheers,
Bob
 
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rms2
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« Reply #335 on: July 23, 2012, 07:08:03 AM »

That's right. Besides, we're descended from all sides in those old grievances, anyway. No one is a "pure" anything. If you're ancestry is British, you're a mix of Mesolithic hunter-gatherer, Neolithic farmer, Celtic headhunter, Roman soldier, Anglo-Saxon pirate, Viking pirate (a bit redundant, I guess), Norman adventurer, Roundhead and Cavalier, and so on.

It just makes things more interesting. And "hybrid vigor" is supposed to be a good thing!
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« Reply #336 on: July 23, 2012, 07:15:02 AM »

Hybrid vigor?  I bought some of those tablets & haven't been able to leave the wife alone since!
Cheers
Bob
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« Reply #337 on: July 23, 2012, 07:19:31 AM »


I don't see most of it as a hatred thing. Though there are radical opinions in corners of every country.

 USA's Independance Day is still celebrated 200+ years after. I don't think this is a "hate the Brits" thing. Perhaps at one time it was? My guess is independance is linked with pride, and recognition.


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« Reply #338 on: July 23, 2012, 08:27:55 AM »

I feel we shouldn't get into the debate about who was most wronged. Most peoples have been at some stage. How far back in history should we go before we stop harbouring hatred?

Yes, Bob, I gather you are English too. I don't know about you but I haven't recently oppressed anyone (even the cat), as far as I know.. The old saying, 'you can't choose your family' often comes to mind in this hobby. I admit to feeling some antipathy towards the Normans after the 'Harrying of the North' but have to tell myself that was a long time ago. For anyone who has a strong pre-existing preference or outcome in mind, a YDNA test is maybe not a good idea.
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« Reply #339 on: July 23, 2012, 08:55:31 AM »

My lot have been in England for over 300 years, Chris. I tried oppressing my Commanding Officer (the wife) but she was having none of it! I think we're often guilty of attaching modern values to events that happened centuries ago. Sadly, I'm afraid over-running neighbouring tribes was pretty much the norm for much of the past.
If I could choose a tribal origin, I admit I'd be happier with  Brythonic Celt roots as opposed to Norman. However, if  turn out to have Norman/Viking blood, then I'm sure I'll find much to be proud of.
I have had to suppress a grin when reading some forums where people wrongly believe their ancestors were of a certain religious persuasion when many know they weren't! I don't know if you saw David Tennant on 'Who Do You Think You Are?' a few years ago? He fell into that particular trap!
I'll have to finish now as I'm off to pillage the next-door-neighbour's house!
Cheers,
Bob
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« Reply #340 on: July 23, 2012, 09:33:53 AM »

Agreed, far too much emphasis and importance invested in vainly trying to attach SNPs/Haplogroups to a particular ethnological group, leading some to insist that L21 is by definition 'Celtic' for example. We are as implied so correctly in the above posts 'children of the universe' and as such petty national identity, and seeking to assert any particular Haplogroup as indicating a specific ethnological origin, is folly.
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« Reply #341 on: July 23, 2012, 11:23:11 AM »

Well maybe we could refer to those Islands as The  Insulae Britannicae, Britannia Magna & Britannia Parva.

If not, then maybe the EU isles, EU Isle 1 & EU Isle 2. You can draw lots to see which is which.
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« Reply #342 on: July 23, 2012, 12:01:12 PM »

I remember on another forum trying to discuss the Norman Conquest. To avoid the pedants' repeated interruptions,  you had to constantly state that you did actually know that the Normans also had Flemings, Franks, Bretons, mercenaries & numerous others accompanying them. Also, it became necessary to state that you appreciated the connection the Normans had to Denmark, & possibly some other Scandinavian countries, before getting to the point of your post.  An initial single sentence comment eventually stretched to an entire paragraph!
The same dilemma seems to be arising now. Personally, I don't use the term British Isles as a means of insulting a neighbouring country. To me it's just a description that many understand. A Welsh friend of mine was travelling the USA & got so fed up with explaining where Wales was that he eventually, through gritted teeth, said:
"I'm from Wales. It's in England". He reckoned he saved precious minutes that way!
How does the British Mainland sound to describe England, Scotland & Wales? Is that acceptable?
I'm glad I'm getting old as I'm finding modern life tiresome!
Cheers,
Bob
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« Reply #343 on: July 23, 2012, 12:20:12 PM »



How does the British Mainland sound to describe England, Scotland & Wales? Is that acceptable?

Cheers,
Bob


why not call England.."England"?...British Mainland seems confusing seeing as it's an Island.
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« Reply #344 on: July 23, 2012, 12:23:49 PM »

But that would be too easy, wouldn't it? You'll be calling a duck a duck next!
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« Reply #345 on: July 23, 2012, 12:26:54 PM »



How does the British Mainland sound to describe England, Scotland & Wales? Is that acceptable?

Cheers,
Bob


why not call England.."England"?...British Mainland seems confusing seeing as it's an Island.

I know I'm being pedantic, but because England is England and only a part of Britain despite what a lot of people who don't live here appear to think !!
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« Reply #346 on: July 23, 2012, 12:28:22 PM »

Indeed it may seem tiresome, of course that view may not be so when seen from the other end of the telescope, more so if it was your culture and land that had been put under the boot of a foreign oppressor. Without grinding any particular axe in this discussion I think we have to consider that far from some ancient dispute, the tyranny that befell Ireland was ended only (albeit partly) in 1921. The consequences of that partition of course tumbled through the decades and still leave their imprint  today, so yes while it is understandable to dismiss such concerns as being ill-informed or pedantic, from the position of some folks in Ireland we should try to at least have a degree of awareness and sensitivity.

As to considering different names while' The British Isles' was usually used in terms of a geographic, more neutral and apolitical description, the fact it suggested some kind of ownership or legitimacy over those islands involved, was enough to raise hackles. More so when viewed against the reality that Ireland was populated by a Gaelic speaking people, who had enjoyed a distinct culture very different to their 'Germanic' neighbors in England.

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« Reply #347 on: July 23, 2012, 12:41:18 PM »

Phew! It's not 6 o'clock yet, but I think I need a pint!
Cheers,
Bob
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« Reply #348 on: July 23, 2012, 01:00:21 PM »

People will use the terms they want, and they will be accepted by some and will bother others.

I will continue to say, The Isles, Derry, north of Ireland, Offaly, and Laois. And others will say, The British Isles, Londonderry, Northern Ireland, King's County and Queen's County.

So be it.
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« Reply #349 on: July 23, 2012, 01:06:18 PM »

Has anybody recently looked at the "People of the British Isles" website?  Which is what this thread was nominally about, way back in... eleven months ago.  Anyway, over on the right side of the screen there's a map of their "British Isles," and it looks unabashedly political.  It's not what an astronaut might see from space; nor is it what our pre-Christian, comfortably idolatrous Copper Age forebears would have seen from a boat, optimistically northbound from... someplace.  In fact, it's pretty much what I get (within the white lines) when I enter "United Kingdom" in Google Maps.

One is led to believe that somebody already had this tedious discussion, settled on the verbiage they would use, drew that peculiarly truncated map (to fit the said verbiage) -- and went ahead with a project they could do, as distinguished from a more comprehensive Isles project they might prefer to do.

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/

And btw I see they are collecting DNA samples in Yorkshire, this week.  Good for them.  That's almost certainly more useful to their research needs, and (in a second-hand way) to ours, than endlessly arguing about who has most grievously wronged whom within recent memory, or recorded history.  Because with a few known exceptions, most of the SNP stuff had already happened well before the political and religious stuff that has bequeathed to us these funny maps, and tedious arguments.
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