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OConnor
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« Reply #125 on: July 12, 2012, 07:31:51 AM »

My y-line goes back to southern Ireland. My MT to Scotland

My Father's eyes were a grey-hazel type. (his Father had brown eyes)
My Mother's eyes were brown.

 I ended up with brown eyes, while my older brother has hazel eyes.

aaaaaaaaaaaa

as far as "Black Irish" goes I have read that this is a term of American origin.
Possibly relating to Irish slaves, and nothing to do with Spain, nor hair/eye colour.

I understood that there was a bounty on any shipwrecked men from Spain who may have come ashore in Ireland.

 Just how many shipwrecked Spaniards were supposed have made it to Ireland and contributed dark complections?..it must be a joke.
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avalon
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« Reply #126 on: July 12, 2012, 08:30:42 AM »

Yep. There are people in Ireland with dark hair and dark eyes. There probably always have been, at least as long as there have been people in Ireland.

There are people in Sweden with dark hair and dark eyes. Probably always have been. I once met a Swedish girl with dark hair and dark eyes. I'm guessing there are probably more like her up there.

But personal experiences of this individual and that, here and there, are not population studies and don't tell us much about the frequency of this or that trait among a given people. I think it is also true that we tend to notice and focus on exceptions, and we tend to want explanations for them, since they strike us as odd, whether we admit it or not. Thus was born the whole "Black Irish" thing and its accompanying Spanish Armada legend. What that tells us is that the combination of really dark hair and eyes is exceptional enough in Ireland that a myth had to be cooked up to explain it.

There may well be Swedish people with dark hair and dark eyes but they are rare and on the whole Scandinavians are lighter haired (this includes blond, red and light brown hair) than than the Irish, Welsh and West Highland Scots.The same is also true of Holland, Germany, Poland and much of northern Europe, where people are generally "fairer" than on the Atlantic seaboard. Studies of hair and eye colour support this, although I agree that dark eye colour is rare in Ireland (hair is different).

The Harvard/Hooton study says the Irish are 40% dark brown hair and 35% medium brown and there is no way the Scandinavian countries have this much dark brown hair!

As mentioned above, Andrea Corr, with dark brown hair and pale skin a very typical irish look, I've met many Irish girls that fit that description. The singers Enya and Sinead O' Connor are simliar.

My theory is that darker features (often hair and sometimes eyes) are a prehistoric genetic link (the Spanish Armada myth is nonsense!) that connects Ireland, Western Scotland and Wales with the western seaboard of France and Spain. It is my undersatnding that modern genetic studies suppprt a such a link.




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inver2b1
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« Reply #127 on: July 12, 2012, 09:09:23 AM »

My y-line goes back to southern Ireland. My MT to Scotland

My Father's eyes were a grey-hazel type. (his Father had brown eyes)
My Mother's eyes were brown.

 I ended up with brown eyes, while my older brother has hazel eyes.

aaaaaaaaaaaa

as far as "Black Irish" goes I have read that this is a term of American origin.
Possibly relating to Irish slaves, and nothing to do with Spain, nor hair/eye colour.

I understood that there was a bounty on any shipwrecked men from Spain who may have come ashore in Ireland.

 Just how many shipwrecked Spaniards were supposed have made it to Ireland and contributed dark complections?..it must be a joke.

I have read that the term Black Irish originally came about as a way to explain any interaction with African Americans or Native Americans, there were also terms as Black Dutch or Black German. I have never heard the term used in Ireland and it seems to be an Irish American thing and it’s taken to mean Spanish Armada ancestry. That idea seems to be have been rubbished, as most of the survivors were killed or captured and made their way to Scotland (where there are similar stories to explain dark features). There are reports of survivors in Sligo being killed by locals and apparently in North Donegal a local lord offered his daughter as a bride to a high status survivor but he refused as he didn’t think much of the Irish. Having said that the Armada idea is popular in Ireland.
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« Reply #128 on: July 12, 2012, 09:15:17 AM »

Yep. There are people in Ireland with dark hair and dark eyes. There probably always have been, at least as long as there have been people in Ireland.

There are people in Sweden with dark hair and dark eyes. Probably always have been. I once met a Swedish girl with dark hair and dark eyes. I'm guessing there are probably more like her up there.

But personal experiences of this individual and that, here and there, are not population studies and don't tell us much about the frequency of this or that trait among a given people. I think it is also true that we tend to notice and focus on exceptions, and we tend to want explanations for them, since they strike us as odd, whether we admit it or not. Thus was born the whole "Black Irish" thing and its accompanying Spanish Armada legend. What that tells us is that the combination of really dark hair and eyes is exceptional enough in Ireland that a myth had to be cooked up to explain it.

There may well be Swedish people with dark hair and dark eyes but they are rare and on the whole Scandinavians are lighter haired (this includes blond, red and light brown hair) than than the Irish, Welsh and West Highland Scots.The same is also true of Holland, Germany, Poland and much of northern Europe, where people are generally "fairer" than on the Atlantic seaboard. Studies of hair and eye colour support this, although I agree that dark eye colour is rare in Ireland (hair is different).

The Harvard/Hooton study says the Irish are 40% dark brown hair and 35% medium brown and there is no way the Scandinavian countries have this much dark brown hair!

As mentioned above, Andrea Corr, with dark brown hair and pale skin a very typical irish look, I've met many Irish girls that fit that description. The singers Enya and Sinead O' Connor are simliar.

My theory is that darker features (often hair and sometimes eyes) are a prehistoric genetic link (the Spanish Armada myth is nonsense!) that connects Ireland, Western Scotland and Wales with the western seaboard of France and Spain. It is my undersatnding that modern genetic studies suppprt a such a link.

My point was not that the combination of dark hair and eyes is common in Sweden or Scandinavia as a whole, or that it is as common there as it is in Ireland. I chose the story of the Swedish girl to illustrate the futility of anecdotal "evidence" precisely because Sweden is thought of as such a bastion of blue-eyed-blond Nordicism that the girl's relative swarthiness would nicely illustrate the point of the presence of exceptions.

It is apparently the exception in Ireland, as well, at least according to the Hooton study of 10,000 Irishmen.

And remember, we are talking about the combination of dark hair and dark eyes, not the proportion of dark hair in Ireland versus that in Scandinavia.

That combination is exceptional enough that some people, whoever they were, felt compelled to cook up a myth, the "Black Irish-Spanish Armada" myth to explain it. What is the essence of that myth? That the combination of dark hair and eyes is exceptional enough in Ireland that it must be derived from a place - in this case Spain - where that combination is much more common.

Even you are making it exceptional in deriving it from someplace else - apparently the Iberian "Ice Age Refuge". The only real difference between the two myths is that one brings dark hair and eyes to Ireland in 1588 and the other pushes the date back a few millennia.

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avalon
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« Reply #129 on: July 12, 2012, 10:00:08 AM »

Yep. There are people in Ireland with dark hair and dark eyes. There probably always have been, at least as long as there have been people in Ireland.

There are people in Sweden with dark hair and dark eyes. Probably always have been. I once met a Swedish girl with dark hair and dark eyes. I'm guessing there are probably more like her up there.

But personal experiences of this individual and that, here and there, are not population studies and don't tell us much about the frequency of this or that trait among a given people. I think it is also true that we tend to notice and focus on exceptions, and we tend to want explanations for them, since they strike us as odd, whether we admit it or not. Thus was born the whole "Black Irish" thing and its accompanying Spanish Armada legend. What that tells us is that the combination of really dark hair and eyes is exceptional enough in Ireland that a myth had to be cooked up to explain it.

There may well be Swedish people with dark hair and dark eyes but they are rare and on the whole Scandinavians are lighter haired (this includes blond, red and light brown hair) than than the Irish, Welsh and West Highland Scots.The same is also true of Holland, Germany, Poland and much of northern Europe, where people are generally "fairer" than on the Atlantic seaboard. Studies of hair and eye colour support this, although I agree that dark eye colour is rare in Ireland (hair is different).

The Harvard/Hooton study says the Irish are 40% dark brown hair and 35% medium brown and there is no way the Scandinavian countries have this much dark brown hair!

As mentioned above, Andrea Corr, with dark brown hair and pale skin a very typical irish look, I've met many Irish girls that fit that description. The singers Enya and Sinead O' Connor are simliar.

My theory is that darker features (often hair and sometimes eyes) are a prehistoric genetic link (the Spanish Armada myth is nonsense!) that connects Ireland, Western Scotland and Wales with the western seaboard of France and Spain. It is my undersatnding that modern genetic studies suppprt a such a link.

My point was not that the combination of dark hair and eyes is common in Sweden or Scandinavia as a whole, or that it is as common there as it is in Ireland. I chose the story of the Swedish girl to illustrate the futility of anecdotal "evidence" precisely because Sweden is thought of as such a bastion of blue-eyed-blond Nordicism that the girl's relative swarthiness would nicely illustrate the point of the presence of exceptions.

It is apparently the exception in Ireland, as well, at least according to the Hooton study of 10,000 Irishmen.

And remember, we are talking about the combination of dark hair and dark eyes, not the proportion of dark hair in Ireland versus that in Scandinavia.

That combination is exceptional enough that some people, whoever they were, felt compelled to cook up a myth, the "Black Irish-Spanish Armada" myth to explain it. What is the essence of that myth? That the combination of dark hair and eyes is exceptional enough in Ireland that it must be derived from a place - in this case Spain - where that combination is much more common.

Even you are making it exceptional in deriving it from someplace else - apparently the Iberian "Ice Age Refuge". The only real difference between the two myths is that one brings dark hair and eyes to Ireland in 1588 and the other pushes the date back a few millennia.



On the issue of eye colour, I agree with you. Dark eye colour is not that common in Ireland; studies and anecdotal observations appear to confirm this.

However, hair colour is a different matter and it is abundantly clear that the Irish as well as the people of Western Britain are noticeably darker haired than other northern European countries such as Germany and the Scandinavian nations. Hair colour points to a closer link with France and Iberia, whenever that may be in history, rather than the fairer haired northern Europeans.

As regards the Harvard/Hooton study, it is my understanding that they sampled Northern Ireland and Protestants as well as catholic Ireland, so this would include people with known English, Norman and lowland Scottish origins. The Vikings have also had a known impact on Ireland in historic times which will have affected the study.

If the study had restricted itself to people with Irish surnames in Gaelic speaking areas we might have got a better representation of the indigenous Irish.

Furthermore, of course I believe that dark hair originated somewhere else, all  Irish traits must have done unless you believe that the mythical red haired celt was running around Ireland during the ice age!


« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 10:11:28 AM by avalon » Logged
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« Reply #130 on: July 12, 2012, 10:10:06 AM »

What I've been trying to do is sub divide Light-eyes.  I think if you subtracted Gery from the % of light eyes  in the Scandinavia you would probably find there are more blue in Ireland. The is very little on grey eyes. I'm wondering if they could go back even as far as the paleolithic as we know the first people in Europe suffered from rickets and other vit-D and pigmentation related problems. It seem reasonable to think that people who had lived on the edges of the glaciers and moving north after the ice retreated would have a greater degree of de-pigmentation. I think lightening of the eyes followed this, South to North. I think this was gradual. I think blue follows a more southerly East to West Plane. I think this needs looked at through genetics to find the difference between blue and grey. I think we were all s bit surprised that blue eyes were only !0,000 years or so old and this recessive gene became so prevalent in  Europe which must have been dark eyed. I'm thinking of the 'Red hair comes from Neanderthals' thing only to find it was a different genes.     
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« Reply #131 on: July 12, 2012, 10:39:40 AM »

Norther Ireland is referred to as the Black North. Black also refers to protestants or someone nasty hence 'ya black b.....t ya' is something said all the time even in jest if someone gets lucky they'd probably get it.   Dubh- black or dark is often used to describe, mood or personality. I think the term is American and may more than one meaning but more frequently used as a derogatory term by the W.A.S.P.s who wanted to differentiate the Irish from themselves. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #132 on: July 12, 2012, 11:22:22 AM »

My y-line goes back to southern Ireland. My MT to Scotland

My Father's eyes were a grey-hazel type. (his Father had brown eyes)
My Mother's eyes were brown.

 I ended up with brown eyes, while my older brother has hazel eyes.

aaaaaaaaaaaa

as far as "Black Irish" goes I have read that this is a term of American origin.
Possibly relating to Irish slaves, and nothing to do with Spain, nor hair/eye colour.

I understood that there was a bounty on any shipwrecked men from Spain who may have come ashore in Ireland.

 Just how many shipwrecked Spaniards were supposed have made it to Ireland and contributed dark complections?..it must be a joke.

I have read that the term Black Irish originally came about as a way to explain any interaction with African Americans or Native Americans, there were also terms as Black Dutch or Black German. I have never heard the term used in Ireland and it seems to be an Irish American thing and it’s taken to mean Spanish Armada ancestry. That idea seems to be have been rubbished, as most of the survivors were killed or captured and made their way to Scotland (where there are similar stories to explain dark features). There are reports of survivors in Sligo being killed by locals and apparently in North Donegal a local lord offered his daughter as a bride to a high status survivor but he refused as he didn’t think much of the Irish. Having said that the Armada idea is popular in Ireland.

I agree.  The term seems to be a new world one although I think it is now known in Ireland but its an Irish-American thing as far as I can see.  In Ireland the equivelent for a long time has been the myth that villages etc with darker folk are as you say often attributed to the Armada.  That of course is nonsense if you read the accounts of the time which tend to describe the Irish slaughtering the Spanish.  De Cuellar being the most famous.

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T108200/index.html
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #133 on: July 12, 2012, 11:24:37 AM »

Norther Ireland is referred to as the Black North. Black also refers to protestants or someone nasty hence 'ya black b.....t ya' is something said all the time even in jest if someone gets lucky they'd probably get it.   Dubh- black or dark is often used to describe, mood or personality. I think the term is American and may more than one meaning but more frequently used as a derogatory term by the W.A.S.P.s who wanted to differentiate the Irish from themselves. 

That is correct.  The derogatory term 'Black' means protestant in Ireland and its still widely used in the north of Ireland as a derogatory term. 
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« Reply #134 on: July 12, 2012, 11:58:17 AM »

In Ireland the equivelent for a long time has been the myth that villages etc with darker folk are as you say often attributed to the Armada.  That of course is nonsense if you read the accounts of the time which tend to describe the Irish slaughtering the Spanish.  De Cuellar being the most famous.

Seems to me we were discussing this back when DNA-Forums went dark, and I had just recently posted a source that would support the "rubbished" scenario.  Anyway it's still at hand, so I'll quote it again.  This is from [recent Bideford mayor] Andrew Thomas Powell, Grenville & the Lost Colony of Roanoke (2011), p. 222.

Quote
As an aside, in 1589, when Diaz made his deposition to the Spanish authorities in Havana recalling his extraordinary adventure, he spoke not only about Grenville's voyage home of 1585 but also the voyage of 1586 and his time as a prisoner of Grenville (along with approximately twenty Spaniards).  The most fascinating comment of which is his account of being made to help build Grenville's house at Bideford.  It is extraordinary to consider the thought of Spanish slaves working on projects in the rural tranquility of small-town England, not to mention the question of where they may be buried today.

Make of it what you will; it's a Portuguese guy covering his behind in testimony to Spanish authorities in Cuba with a tale of miseries in England... but de Cuellar isn't exactly an Irish local historian, either.  At the governmental level, and broadly speaking, relations between the English and Spanish were not friendly in the 1580s.  That doesn't mean no Irish babies could have had Spanish daddies, one way or another.

Well really, just the one regular way.
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« Reply #135 on: July 12, 2012, 12:01:50 PM »

Yep. There are people in Ireland with dark hair and dark eyes. There probably always have been, at least as long as there have been people in Ireland.

There are people in Sweden with dark hair and dark eyes. Probably always have been. I once met a Swedish girl with dark hair and dark eyes. I'm guessing there are probably more like her up there.

But personal experiences of this individual and that, here and there, are not population studies and don't tell us much about the frequency of this or that trait among a given people. I think it is also true that we tend to notice and focus on exceptions, and we tend to want explanations for them, since they strike us as odd, whether we admit it or not. Thus was born the whole "Black Irish" thing and its accompanying Spanish Armada legend. What that tells us is that the combination of really dark hair and eyes is exceptional enough in Ireland that a myth had to be cooked up to explain it.

There may well be Swedish people with dark hair and dark eyes but they are rare and on the whole Scandinavians are lighter haired (this includes blond, red and light brown hair) than than the Irish, Welsh and West Highland Scots.The same is also true of Holland, Germany, Poland and much of northern Europe, where people are generally "fairer" than on the Atlantic seaboard. Studies of hair and eye colour support this, although I agree that dark eye colour is rare in Ireland (hair is different).

The Harvard/Hooton study says the Irish are 40% dark brown hair and 35% medium brown and there is no way the Scandinavian countries have this much dark brown hair!

As mentioned above, Andrea Corr, with dark brown hair and pale skin a very typical irish look, I've met many Irish girls that fit that description. The singers Enya and Sinead O' Connor are simliar.

My theory is that darker features (often hair and sometimes eyes) are a prehistoric genetic link (the Spanish Armada myth is nonsense!) that connects Ireland, Western Scotland and Wales with the western seaboard of France and Spain. It is my undersatnding that modern genetic studies suppprt a such a link.

My point was not that the combination of dark hair and eyes is common in Sweden or Scandinavia as a whole, or that it is as common there as it is in Ireland. I chose the story of the Swedish girl to illustrate the futility of anecdotal "evidence" precisely because Sweden is thought of as such a bastion of blue-eyed-blond Nordicism that the girl's relative swarthiness would nicely illustrate the point of the presence of exceptions.

It is apparently the exception in Ireland, as well, at least according to the Hooton study of 10,000 Irishmen.

And remember, we are talking about the combination of dark hair and dark eyes, not the proportion of dark hair in Ireland versus that in Scandinavia.

That combination is exceptional enough that some people, whoever they were, felt compelled to cook up a myth, the "Black Irish-Spanish Armada" myth to explain it. What is the essence of that myth? That the combination of dark hair and eyes is exceptional enough in Ireland that it must be derived from a place - in this case Spain - where that combination is much more common.

Even you are making it exceptional in deriving it from someplace else - apparently the Iberian "Ice Age Refuge". The only real difference between the two myths is that one brings dark hair and eyes to Ireland in 1588 and the other pushes the date back a few millennia.



One thing I would say is that Brown hair is dominant in the isles everywhere.  The difference is that people like Beddoe would count lighter brown in the light count and darker brown in the dark count.  The reality is a great deal of what Beddoe was listing as light is really light brown/mousey.  That is the reality.  Real bright blond hair is common among children but overwwhelmingly turns to a shade of brown in adulthood.   The Romans actually said that of the Gauls - the children had very blond hair but it darkened in adulthood (when bleaching was then often used).  I read a recent article that nearly 40% of the British female population have their hair  but its almost all out of a bottle and only about 8% is real.  The majority of the relatively convincing blondes are in reality mid-light Brown.  I also read that the biggest bleachers of hair in Europe are Swedisih women.  Again I suspect most are as adults mousey which does go  fairly convincingly in a way that is not true when darker brunettes do the same.
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« Reply #136 on: July 12, 2012, 01:24:56 PM »


... There is no doubt that a strain of dark hair and drak eyes exists in Ireland among the Gaelic population.

That Hooton study doesn't deny that there are dark-haired, dark-eyed Irish people. The dark-haired component is pretty prevalent, as a matter of fact. It is the dark-eyed part, if by that one means dark brown or black, that is less frequent. Dark brown or black eyes, while not non-existent, just aren't all that common among the Irish, at least they weren't among the 10,000 men that Hooton and Dupertuis studied, and 10,000 is a pretty substantial number

How do we know who the ancient Gaelic population is? I don't trust surnames very much, although I agree they are a consideration.

My father, grandfather and g-grandfather had dark, nearly black hair to go with dark brown eyes. Perhaps this makes some sense. I always that I thought I was a Gael (and I must be autosomally somewhere) but found my paternal lineage family wrote they were not "Old Irish" (which seems to be equated to Gaelic.)  Perhaps the dark eyes/hair thing has some relevancy, although I'm sure nothing is pure this or that.

When you're talking about your father's lineage, aren't you talking about his Y line? I don't think his dark hair and dark eyes can be attributed only to his Y lineage.

When I say "Gaelic Population" I mean what is often refered to as the "native Irish population", which I assume means those in Ireland before the Vikings, Normans, English and Scots. We don't only have surnames, although even on Y lines, surnames have shown patterns (NOT ALWAYS PERFECT!!!!!!!), we also have autosomal DNA. Most of the people testing on Dodecad and Eurogenes are what I would call "native Irish", and they have mostly native Gaelic names. Even if they don't have a native Gaelic surname, I'd bet that they have at least 75% native surnames in their background.

Okay, so maybe my Dad was of Greek ancestry, but when a guy is an Irish Catholic from northwest Co. Wexford and has the surname Kehoe with a mother named Quinn, along with the names Ronan, Nolan, Connors, Slamon, Buckley, and Horan in his recent background, he is probably of Gaelic Irish stock. Yes, yes, yes, he has the name Taaffe in his ancestry, but the Norman invasion can't explain every dark haired, dark eyed person in Ireland. They say that one out of seven surnames is Norman, so perhaps all Irish have about 13% Norman blood, but were all the Normans dark haired and dark eyed?
....
There is a Gaelic Population of Ireland and some of them have dark hair and dark eyes. If 80% of Ireland had light eyes, then 20% would have dark! Add that chance to the percentage of dark haired Irish and you're bound to get the dark on dark combination.

Then again it could be that we are all Welsh/Norman/Greek/Spanish fishermen....

My father's lineage as far back as I can directly see was dark hair and eyes. That goes back to a Walsh marrying a Kelly. Before that and back over to Ireland We have the dair hair on the paternal side but I don't know about the eyes. Ironically, my Mom's side is mostly Czech and she is  with blue eyes.... but she is one quarter Scots-Irish.

I agree that there were probably some dark hair and eyes people in the original Gaelic population. How many? I don't know.

I'm not asking this for inaneness sake, but I actually thought my father's family/lineage was supposed to be "Old Irish" but found out later they say they are not. In my case, the surname probably was a clue that this was the case, but I still ask the general question...

Give that surnames are not always reliable, how do we know who the ancient Gaelic population is?

Besides Normans, Vikings, English and Welsh; there must be some old Picts and other misc. types.  If we could discern this by DNA that'd be interesting. I don't know if we can yet.  As you know, we even have some U106 folks who are pretty convinced they are Gaelic.
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« Reply #137 on: July 12, 2012, 03:27:40 PM »

"even have some U106 folks who are pretty convinced they are Gaelic."

C'mon that's just so off the scale, I mean all those freckles, fair skin, blue-eyes and dark brown wavy hair is surely the give away, that such features arrived in Ireland from the mudflats of Friesia via England.

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« Reply #138 on: July 12, 2012, 05:07:41 PM »

"even have some U106 folks who are pretty convinced they are Gaelic."

C'mon that's just so off the scale, I mean all those freckles, fair skin, blue-eyes and dark brown wavy hair is surely the give away, that such features arrived in Ireland from the mudflats of Friesia via England.

What do mean by "off the scale" ?
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« Reply #139 on: July 12, 2012, 05:21:39 PM »

As in beyond reason or credibility, used in the context that a prevailing view has it that not a single R U106 individual in Ireland could possibly be derived from any lineage other than some 'Germanic' source through later incursions and colonization. Is that not partly reflected in your choice of words when asserting "As you know, we even have some U106 folks who are pretty convinced they are Gaelic." ? (emphasis added)
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« Reply #140 on: July 12, 2012, 06:47:39 PM »

As in beyond reason or credibility, used in the context that a prevailing view has it that not a single R U106 individual in Ireland could possibly be derived from any lineage other than some 'Germanic' source through later incursions and colonization. Is that not partly reflected in your choice of words when asserting "As you know, we even have some U106 folks who are pretty convinced they are Gaelic." ? (emphasis added)

Okay, I retract the "even."

Looks like we have to walk on egg shells around here...

A good Irishman would never let an argument or fight pass by without participating, but I quote the following in self-deprecation.  With a Walsh immigrant gg-grandfather and Keefe gg-grandmother from Ballinteskin, and maternal lineages that include g-grandmother Kelly, and a Fleming, Tryman and Butler all from Ireland, then a Rhea and a McCarter on another side I think I've got some ancient Gaelic in there somewhere, probably a lot.

In both self-deprecation and pride, it seems not to matter whether one is L21, U106, P312* or Hg I whatever, the Gaels, well, I guess the poem is correct...

For the great Gaels of Ireland
Are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry,
And all their songs are sad.

- G.K. Chesterton

Remember that is out of pride as well, especially given my father's Irish temper. I love the poem, but I should probably put on flack jacket.
 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 06:56:06 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Mike Forsythe
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« Reply #141 on: July 12, 2012, 07:36:30 PM »

Not sure if this is exactly correct...but I sure do like the poem..

Na nGaeil mór na hEireann
Tá said na fir sin rinne Dia as a mheabhair
De bhrí a cogaí go léir meidhreach
Agus a amhránaí go léir brónack
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rms2
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« Reply #142 on: July 12, 2012, 07:39:15 PM »

I like G.K. Chesterton's works. He was a great writer and thinker.
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Arwunbee
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« Reply #143 on: July 12, 2012, 08:15:54 PM »

As you know, we even have some U106 folks who are pretty convinced they are Gaelic.
And we wouldn't want that, would we boys?  ;-)
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« Reply #144 on: July 12, 2012, 08:39:33 PM »

As you know, we even have some U106 folks who are pretty convinced they are Gaelic.
And we wouldn't want that, would we boys?  ;-)

Let's not stir that *stuff* up again, please.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #145 on: July 13, 2012, 04:10:48 AM »

Cromwell had no problem identifying the Gaelic population of Ireland. British troops in the north of Ireland can tell you in a second where the Gaelic population lives. Many time, they can idenify a Gaelic Irish person by their first name.

The Normans also had no problem identifying the Gaelic population of Ireland.

I can take you personally to several Gaelic parts of Ireland. In these areas you will find mostly people with natvie Irish names and most of them will be Catholic. Some of them will even have dark hair and dark eyes.
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Arwunbee
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« Reply #146 on: July 13, 2012, 04:27:26 AM »

As you know, we even have some U106 folks who are pretty convinced they are Gaelic.
And we wouldn't want that, would we boys?  ;-)

Let's not stir that *stuff* up again, please.
Your message is better directed at Mikewww.  Cheers.
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avalon
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« Reply #147 on: July 13, 2012, 04:33:07 AM »

Yep. There are people in Ireland with dark hair and dark eyes. There probably always have been, at least as long as there have been people in Ireland.

There are people in Sweden with dark hair and dark eyes. Probably always have been. I once met a Swedish girl with dark hair and dark eyes. I'm guessing there are probably more like her up there.

But personal experiences of this individual and that, here and there, are not population studies and don't tell us much about the frequency of this or that trait among a given people. I think it is also true that we tend to notice and focus on exceptions, and we tend to want explanations for them, since they strike us as odd, whether we admit it or not. Thus was born the whole "Black Irish" thing and its accompanying Spanish Armada legend. What that tells us is that the combination of really dark hair and eyes is exceptional enough in Ireland that a myth had to be cooked up to explain it.

There may well be Swedish people with dark hair and dark eyes but they are rare and on the whole Scandinavians are lighter haired (this includes blond, red and light brown hair) than than the Irish, Welsh and West Highland Scots.The same is also true of Holland, Germany, Poland and much of northern Europe, where people are generally "fairer" than on the Atlantic seaboard. Studies of hair and eye colour support this, although I agree that dark eye colour is rare in Ireland (hair is different).

The Harvard/Hooton study says the Irish are 40% dark brown hair and 35% medium brown and there is no way the Scandinavian countries have this much dark brown hair!

As mentioned above, Andrea Corr, with dark brown hair and pale skin a very typical irish look, I've met many Irish girls that fit that description. The singers Enya and Sinead O' Connor are simliar.

My theory is that darker features (often hair and sometimes eyes) are a prehistoric genetic link (the Spanish Armada myth is nonsense!) that connects Ireland, Western Scotland and Wales with the western seaboard of France and Spain. It is my undersatnding that modern genetic studies suppprt a such a link.

My point was not that the combination of dark hair and eyes is common in Sweden or Scandinavia as a whole, or that it is as common there as it is in Ireland. I chose the story of the Swedish girl to illustrate the futility of anecdotal "evidence" precisely because Sweden is thought of as such a bastion of blue-eyed-blond Nordicism that the girl's relative swarthiness would nicely illustrate the point of the presence of exceptions.

It is apparently the exception in Ireland, as well, at least according to the Hooton study of 10,000 Irishmen.

And remember, we are talking about the combination of dark hair and dark eyes, not the proportion of dark hair in Ireland versus that in Scandinavia.

That combination is exceptional enough that some people, whoever they were, felt compelled to cook up a myth, the "Black Irish-Spanish Armada" myth to explain it. What is the essence of that myth? That the combination of dark hair and eyes is exceptional enough in Ireland that it must be derived from a place - in this case Spain - where that combination is much more common.

Even you are making it exceptional in deriving it from someplace else - apparently the Iberian "Ice Age Refuge". The only real difference between the two myths is that one brings dark hair and eyes to Ireland in 1588 and the other pushes the date back a few millennia.



One thing I would say is that Brown hair is dominant in the isles everywhere.  The difference is that people like Beddoe would count lighter brown in the light count and darker brown in the dark count.  The reality is a great deal of what Beddoe was listing as light is really light brown/mousey.  That is the reality.  Real bright blond hair is common among children but overwwhelmingly turns to a shade of brown in adulthood.   The Romans actually said that of the Gauls - the children had very blond hair but it darkened in adulthood (when bleaching was then often used).  I read a recent article that nearly 40% of the British female population have their hair  but its almost all out of a bottle and only about 8% is real.  The majority of the relatively convincing blondes are in reality mid-light Brown.  I also read that the biggest bleachers of hair in Europe are Swedisih women.  Again I suspect most are as adults mousey which does go  fairly convincingly in a way that is not true when darker brunettes do the same.

Yes, brown hair is dominant in Britain and Ireland but to my eyes there is little difference between light brown and dark blond, so therefore Beddoe was correct to identify light brown hair as "lighter." Most adults I know with light or medium brown hair had blond hair as young children.

My main point is regarding those British or Irish people with very dark brown, sometimes black hair (for example, legendary soccer player Roy Keane, George Best  is another example) who have a swarthier, Spanish look.

Let us not forget that John Beddoe himself concluded that Wales, Cornwall and Western Ireland were darker than England and much of Scotland.

How do we account for the fact that the indigenous Irish and Welsh are generally darker haired than anywhere else in northern Europe?
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A.D.
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« Reply #148 on: July 13, 2012, 06:09:25 AM »

Kerry is an example 'the tribesmen' from 'the kingdom' has remained quite isolated from its neighbors particularly Cork. If you look at a crowd at a G.A.A. match you' see enough dark hair and eyes interestingly it was an early neolithic area of settlement.
Is there any DNA showing a S European spike compared to surrounding areas? I don't think we have enough numbers to say anything for sure at that level of localization. 
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whoknows
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« Reply #149 on: July 13, 2012, 06:12:38 AM »

Dear rms2

To be fair to Mike his reference to R U106, and those from Ireland who have no objection to considering their lineage as being derived from 'Gaelic' beginnings, as opposed to the prevailing view that the Haplogroup's presence there is due completely to Germanic incursion/colonization, was in my humble view simply a 'slip-of-the-pen' in using an unfortunate turn of phrase, which those who do not consider the R U106 in the Isles to be a closed and entirely proven case, would understandably question. Respect to Mike for having the deceny to recognize the shortcomings in his comment.

For my part I have raised the subject previously and enjoyed noting an opposing view, in that context I am currently not seeking to revisit that discussion ("stuff"). Of course positions are not fixed and who knows what future exchanges maybe required to further stretch the speculation on the subject.
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