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sernam
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« Reply #300 on: July 21, 2012, 07:56:10 PM »

[quote author=avalon link=topic=10025.msg134664#msg134664

Interesting, the hair frequencies (I realise this is just alleles, but still) for South Wales and Yorkshire do seem to agree with Beddoe's results.

It seems then that Yorkshire can attribute a proportion of its red hair to the Danes who settled there. As i've said previously the north of England has relative high red hair (according to Beddoe). That this is also the area of the "Danelaw" intrigues me given the resluts of this study by Royrik.

Red hair in South Wales might also be partly attributable to the Flemish, Vikings and latterly 19th century English migrants who settled there.
[/quote]


The problem is that you cannot be sure about the proportions of populations, for instance areas you keep bringing up  were obviously previous to AngloSaxon rule were Briton, the Angle kingdom Deira kept the Celtic name, Deywr, ( also similarly Bernicia) unlike most other Germanic areas, as in Essex, Sussex, Wessex, East Anglia, Middle Angles, Mercia, Surrey etc. So it seems likely a fairly large population of Britons were amongst them originally, or why else keep a foreign name? Later even more continental Y lineages would come from the east via Scandinavian Vikings & from the west via mixed Norse Gaels, but Y lineages are only ½ the story, males can’t have children alone.  Similarly in the small part of SWestern Wales, S Pembrokeshire you point to there were settlements by Flemish plus probably others, but if it was such a large impact, in spite of language differences , then why in Capelli’s Y study was  Haverfordwest grouped closely w another N Welsh area plus a western Irish town & a Basque sample? It’s not exactly evidence of great population replacement w none of the far larger I component in Dutch  & Belgian Flemish samples missing. In People of the British Isles, Orkney comes out on top for rufosity. Of course Orkney was settled to a large extent by Scandinavians but bodmer says by Scandinavian men, the women appear to be local, so there again a mixed population. The other major area is around Perth (4 mentions out of 10 IIRC), an area w very little non British admixture that I’m familiar w, except (as Alan mentioned in another thread) by Gaels, (hence Athol, New Ireland, movement of Columban relics & clergy to dunkeld & later related Ui Niall kings ).

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« Reply #301 on: July 21, 2012, 08:08:46 PM »


The Republic of Ireland is not part of the United Kingdom, but it takes up the majority of the island of Ireland.

I think this is all fairly clear cut. People may want to change it or wish it was something different, but this is what it is.

To give it even more of a twist the Official name of the state is Ireland -- "Republic of Ireland" is only a description of the state. It's a republic after all.

To quote a spokesman of Irish embassy in London:
"The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the Empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms. We would discourage its usage"

In my family we never said "Northern Ireland" it was always "the north of Ireland", and cards and letters were addressed to Co. Derry, Ireland and Belfast, Ireland. Although, I'm sending off a letter today to a friend and I'm addressing it to Belfast, 14 6EA, N. Ireland. That's a close as I can get!

I also prefer the term "The Isles".

I don't know why I participate in such arguments and take a position ???  ... I guess its because I'm both Irish and American. There is no use denying where my hard-headedness comes from. I guess I like the idea of being the loyal opposition.

"The Isles" is both very non-descriptive and Euro-centric. It's boring to boot.

If we want to change the name let's get the United Nations and the map makers together and rename them the "European Peninsula Northwest Islands."

What's the big deal? The Romans named a lot of stuff we have today. It's not as if these are called the English Isles. Hey, my ancestors* were trampled on by Cromwell too. I have some news for the politicians. The British Empire is dead. There is still a great alliance, but this can no longer be called an empire. Anybody that goes to school and listens knows that the Republic of Ireland is independent.

The Old Brits were Celts, and I would not be surprised if the admixture in Ireland includes a lot of Old Brits, and pre-Old Brits. I guess we should not forget the Normans and even the English are mixed in with us. We are they to a large extent.


*Edit: In retrospect, I guess time heals wounds and I have the added benefit of a great distance..... and also the knowledge that that I have drops of English blood in me too.
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sernam
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« Reply #302 on: July 21, 2012, 08:48:32 PM »


The Republic of Ireland is not part of the United Kingdom, but it takes up the majority of the island of Ireland.

I think this is all fairly clear cut. People may want to change it or wish it was something different, but this is what it is.

To give it even more of a twist the Official name of the state is Ireland -- "Republic of Ireland" is only a description of the state. It's a republic after all.

To quote a spokesman of Irish embassy in London:
"The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the Empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms. We would discourage its usage"

In my family we never said "Northern Ireland" it was always "the north of Ireland", and cards and letters were addressed to Co. Derry, Ireland and Belfast, Ireland. Although, I'm sending off a letter today to a friend and I'm addressing it to Belfast, 14 6EA, N. Ireland. That's a close as I can get!

I also prefer the term "The Isles".

I don't know why I participate in such arguments and take a position ???  ... I guess its because I'm both Irish and American. There is no use denying where my hard-headedness comes from. I guess I like the idea of being the loyal opposition.

"The Isles" is both very non-descriptive and Euro-centric. It's boring to boot.

If we want to change the name let's get the United Nations and the map makers together and rename them the "European Peninsula Northwest Islands."

What's the big deal? The Romans named a lot of stuff we have today. It's not as if these are called the English Isles. Hey, my ancestors* were trampled on by Cromwell too. I have some news for the politicians. The British Empire is dead. There is still a great alliance, but this can no longer be called an empire. Anybody that is goes to school and listens knows that the Republic of Ireland is independent.

The Old Brits were Celts, and I would not be surprised if the admixture in Ireland includes a lot of Old Brits, and pre-Old Brits. I guess we should not forget the Normans and even the English are mixed in with us. We are they to a large extent.


*Edit: In retrospect, I guess time heals wounds and I have the added benefit of a great distance..... and also the knowledge that that I drops of English blood in me too.

well just call it cruithne isles if it bugs you.
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sernam
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« Reply #303 on: July 21, 2012, 08:51:06 PM »


That's odd. PoBI does not have data for the Republic of Ireland - only Northern Ireland. The article says they used data from other studies for Ireland. Royrvik got her
  • British data from the PoBI project
  • Swedish and Irish data from Harding, Healy et al, Evidence for variable selective pressures at MCIR, American Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 66, no. 4 (2000), pp. 1351-61.  (This paper is in the mini-library: Population Genetics > Autosomal > Pigmentation .)
  • Danish data from Mengel-From, Borsting et al., Determination of cis/trans phase of variations in the MC1R gene ..., Electrophoresis, vol. 29, no. 23 (2008), pp. 4780-7.

The Harding 2000 study is pretty old. There may be a newer one.

[Added] Aha! Meg R. Gerstenblith et al, Comprehensive evaluation of allele frequency differences of MC1R variants across populations, Human Mutation, Volume 28, Issue 5, pages 495–505, May 2007, but they are just using British/Irish data from  Harding, Healy 2000 and Flanagan 2000. Putting it in the Mini-Library now.

Mini library??
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eochaidh
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« Reply #304 on: July 21, 2012, 09:07:27 PM »

When you have Irish family and friends living in Co. Derry, Co. Antrim, Co. Down and Co. Tyrone, you may tend to be a bit more sensitive to being called "British". Especially when your family was living in Ireland during the sell out, I mean partition of Ireland.

EDIT: He said with a smile  :)
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« Reply #305 on: July 21, 2012, 09:49:26 PM »


Quote from: Mikewww

I think this is all fairly clear cut. People may want to change it or wish it was something different, but this is what it is.

well just call it cruithne isles if it bugs you.

You may call it whatever you want, but Shakespeare was right, "What's in a name? that which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet." A rose is a rose and the British Isles are the British Isles.
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« Reply #306 on: July 21, 2012, 10:08:28 PM »

When you have Irish family and friends living in Co. Derry, Co. Antrim, Co. Down and Co. Tyrone, you may tend to be a bit more sensitive to being called "British". Especially when your family was living in Ireland during the sell out, I mean partition of Ireland.

EDIT: He said with a smile  :)

To live in Ireland, one of the British Isles, does not mean you are British and I would not call an Irishman a Brit. Is a Dutch Afrikaner an African? I speak English but I do not consider myself an Englishman, although I probably have some English blood via my Judd and Brown lineages of England.

By "sell out" are you speaking about the whole thing with Michael Collins? I don't know much about it, but I watched the show with Ian Leeson, who just happens to be from Northern Ireland. It was a very good.

Political sensitivity and correctness are a part of modern life, but that doesn't change facts.
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« Reply #307 on: July 21, 2012, 10:18:23 PM »

When you have Irish family and friends living in Co. Derry, Co. Antrim, Co. Down and Co. Tyrone, you may tend to be a bit more sensitive to being called "British". Especially when your family was living in Ireland during the sell out, I mean partition of Ireland.

EDIT: He said with a smile  :)

Sell out...... joking right?? Don't even go there.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #308 on: July 21, 2012, 10:20:09 PM »

And the fact is that many Irish don't like the term "British Isles", so they use the term "The Isles".

And the fact is that my family in Derry and Belfast ARE British citizens, but they consider themselves Irish. When my cousin from Co. Derry moved to the U.S. she came as an Irish Citizen, not a British Citizen; Irish passport and all.

And the FACT is that my friend's son Paddy Barnes is born and raised in Belfast and IS boxing for the Irish Team in the Olympics. He won a Bronze Medal as an Irishman in the 2008 Olympics. I've known his mom, Ellen, since she was a kid in Ballymurphy, Belfast. She lived in San Francisco for 8 years and moved back.

Some of us Irish just never seem to accept our "Britishness", even if it's a FACT!  :)

Ellen is still my facebook friend and I just mailed her a letter today. I'll gladly pass on any messages of support for Paddy Barnes!!
Go Paddy Barnes!! Go Ireland!!
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« Reply #309 on: July 21, 2012, 10:29:08 PM »

And the fact is that many Irish don't like the term "British Isles", so they use the term "The Isles".

And the fact is that my family in Derry and Belfast ARE British citizens, but they consider themselves Irish. When my cousin from Co. Derry moved to the U.S. she came as an Irish Citizen, not a British Citizen; Irish passport and all.

And the FACT is that my friend's son Paddy Barnes is born and raised in Belfast and IS boxing for the Irish Team in the Olympics. He won a Bronze Medal as an Irishman in the 2008 Olympics. I've known his mom, Ellen, since she was a kid in Ballymurphy, Belfast. She lived in San Francisco for 8 years and moved back.

Some of us Irish just never seem to accept our "Britishness", even if it's a FACT!  :)

Ellen is still my facebook friend and I just mailed her a letter today. I'll gladly pass on any messages of support for Paddy Barnes!!
Go Paddy Barnes!! Go Ireland!!

As I said, people may call things what they want. People may not like things, but that doesn't change reality.

On another topic, Congratulations to Paddy!

BTW, I have a lineage, the Rhea's, who immigrated from Ulster prior to the US Revolutionary War. They were originally from Argyl but sided with their relative (they say,) Archibald Campbell and the Duke of Monmouth. Turned out to be a bad idea. These Scottish Protestants were routed by the Catholic King James II of England's forces. They went to Co. Derry but eventually got squeezed out (economically) between the Catholics and the Anglicans.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #310 on: July 21, 2012, 10:33:22 PM »

And the fact is that many Irish don't like the term "British Isles", so they use the term "The Isles".

And the fact is that my family in Derry and Belfast ARE British citizens, but they consider themselves Irish. When my cousin from Co. Derry moved to the U.S. she came as an Irish Citizen, not a British Citizen; Irish passport and all.

And the FACT is that my friend's son Paddy Barnes is born and raised in Belfast and IS boxing for the Irish Team in the Olympics. He won a Bronze Medal as an Irishman in the 2008 Olympics. I've known his mom, Ellen, since she was a kid in Ballymurphy, Belfast. She lived in San Francisco for 8 years and moved back.

Some of us Irish just never seem to accept our "Britishness", even if it's a FACT!  :)

Ellen is still my facebook friend and I just mailed her a letter today. I'll gladly pass on any messages of support for Paddy Barnes!!
Go Paddy Barnes!! Go Ireland!!

As I said, people may call things what they want. It doesn't change reality, though.

Congratulations to Paddy!

BTW, I have a lineage, the Rhea's, who immigrated from Ulster prior to the US Revolutionary War. They were originally from Argyl but sided with their relative (they say,) Archibald Campbell and the Duke of Monmouth. Turned out to be a bad idea. These Scottish Protestants were routed by the Catholic King James II of England's forces. They went to Co. Derry but eventually got squeezed out (economically) between the Catholics and the Anglicans.


I have Rea family by marriage from Derry. The spelling may have something to do with religion, but I'm not certain. Or, maybe it did at one time.

I'll pass on your "Go Paddy!!"  :)
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« Reply #311 on: July 21, 2012, 10:41:42 PM »

And the fact is that many Irish don't like the term "British Isles", so they use the term "The Isles".

And the fact is that my family in Derry and Belfast ARE British citizens, but they consider themselves Irish. When my cousin from Co. Derry moved to the U.S. she came as an Irish Citizen, not a British Citizen; Irish passport and all.

And the FACT is that my friend's son Paddy Barnes is born and raised in Belfast and IS boxing for the Irish Team in the Olympics. He won a Bronze Medal as an Irishman in the 2008 Olympics. I've known his mom, Ellen, since she was a kid in Ballymurphy, Belfast. She lived in San Francisco for 8 years and moved back.

Some of us Irish just never seem to accept our "Britishness", even if it's a FACT!  :)

Ellen is still my facebook friend and I just mailed her a letter today. I'll gladly pass on any messages of support for Paddy Barnes!!
Go Paddy Barnes!! Go Ireland!!

As I said, people may call things what they want. It doesn't change reality, though.

Congratulations to Paddy!

BTW, I have a lineage, the Rhea's, who immigrated from Ulster prior to the US Revolutionary War. They were originally from Argyl but sided with their relative (they say,) Archibald Campbell and the Duke of Monmouth. Turned out to be a bad idea. These Scottish Protestants were routed by the Catholic King James II of England's forces. They went to Co. Derry but eventually got squeezed out (economically) between the Catholics and the Anglicans.


I have Rea family by marriage from Derry. The spelling may have something to do with religion, but I'm not certain. Or, maybe it did at one time....

My grandmother is a Rhea of this lineage (my Rhea cousins' kits):
7348 & N54022    Rev. Joseph Rhea
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rea-ray-wray/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://www.suddenlink.net/pages/fpreston/jorhea.htm

They are R-Z255/L159.2 Irish Sea types.
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« Reply #312 on: July 21, 2012, 10:52:19 PM »

Basically I think people are whatever they think regardless of state.  I think Europe in the EU with its free borders is heading for a US style situation where identity and heritage and the nation state are different things. 
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eochaidh
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« Reply #313 on: July 21, 2012, 11:14:59 PM »



I have Rea family by marriage from Derry. The spelling may have something to do with religion, but I'm not certain. Or, maybe it did at one time....
[/quote]

My grandmother is a Rhea of this lineage (my Rhea cousins' kits):
7348 & N54022    Rev. Joseph Rhea
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rea-ray-wray/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://www.suddenlink.net/pages/fpreston/jorhea.htm

They are R-Z255/L159.2 Irish Sea types.






XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
[/quote]

That's amazing to have that much information, genetically and genealogically. Sometimes I think the closer one is to their European roots, the less information they have. I know I have way more information on my French-Canadian quarter.
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« Reply #314 on: July 22, 2012, 09:43:28 AM »

Basically I think people are whatever they think regardless of state.  I think Europe in the EU with its free borders is heading for a US style situation where identity and heritage and the nation state are different things. 

Possibly but that asssumes everything will turn out Ok with the crisis now taking place!
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« Reply #315 on: July 22, 2012, 01:10:13 PM »

I have Rea family by marriage from Derry. The spelling may have something to do with religion, but I'm not certain. Or, maybe it did at one time...

Quote from: mikewww
My grandmother is a Rhea of this lineage (my Rhea cousins' kits):
7348 & N54022    Rev. Joseph Rhea
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rea-ray-wray/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://www.suddenlink.net/pages/fpreston/jorhea.htm

They are R-Z255/L159.2 Irish Sea types.

That's amazing to have that much information, genetically and genealogically. Sometimes I think the closer one is to their European roots, the less information they have. I know I have way more information on my French-Canadian quarter.

According to the Y DNA and their connections to the Rev. Joseph Rhea, I have 2nd/3rd cousins who's surnames are Rea as well as Ray.  This seems to be common. The surname variants are often truly related so the Rea vs. Rhea spelling is probably inconsequential.
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« Reply #316 on: July 22, 2012, 01:14:07 PM »

And the fact is that many Irish don't like the term "British Isles", so they use the term "The Isles".
....
Some of us Irish just never seem to accept our "Britishness", even if it's a FACT!  :)

As I said, people may call things what they want. People may not like things, but that doesn't change reality....

This is a quote from Stephen F on another forum. I haven't seen this documentary but here is a quote from it.
Quote from: Stephen F
To quote from Fergal Keane in the recent BBC/RTÉ documentary series "A History of Ireland", "we [the Irish] are no more Celtic than our English neighbours."

I don't totally agree with Fergal Keane, but..

for the British Isles to be the British Isles, is a very Celtic thing..... so what's the big deal? The British Empire is dead. The English have more Celtic in them than they know. The Romans pretty much documented the area, while winning the wars, and by that became authors of much of the place naming and history.
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« Reply #317 on: July 22, 2012, 02:09:59 PM »

And the fact is that many Irish don't like the term "British Isles", so they use the term "The Isles".
....
Some of us Irish just never seem to accept our "Britishness", even if it's a FACT!  :)

As I said, people may call things what they want. People may not like things, but that doesn't change reality....

This is a quote from Stephen F on another forum. I haven't seen this documentary but here is a quote from it.
Quote from: Stephen F
To quote from Fergal Keane in the recent BBC/RTÉ documentary series "A History of Ireland", "we [the Irish] are no more Celtic than our English neighbours."

I don't totally agree with Fergal Keane, but..

for the British Isles to be the British Isles, is a very Celtic thing..... so what's the big deal? The British Empire is dead. The English have more Celtic in them than they know. The Romans pretty much documented the area, while winning the wars, and by that became authors of much of the place naming and history.

Historically the British Isles is the oldest collective name for the two islands, mentioned in the 4th century BC 'Pretanic Isles'.  The Pretani or Cruithne as they were called in Gaelic were also present in Ireland (along with several other elements) as well as Britain.  So, the term is correct in so far as the area occupied by the Pretani included parts of both islands.  Irish sources indicate the Cruitne were an important element in Ireland although apparently shrinking by the mid 6th century AD.  it seems like they had once been bigger, possible the dominant element in the northern half of Ireland.  Personally I think the name in both Britain and Ireland is linked to the La Tene elements as it appears around the time the La Tene material appeared.  I even wonder if 'people of designs' which Pretani means actually relates to La Tene art and was possibly originally a designation given to them by the pre-La Tene population when they arrived.  Anyway the upshot is that the root of British Isles in its early form 'Pretanic islands' does have a historical basis of some sort.

That doesnt take away the fact that a lot of people are touchy about terms, names, flags, anthems etc.  Problem is you simply cant win in terms of the name for northern Ireland, Derry/Londonderry etc.  For every person who wants you to use one name there is another guy who has the opposite view.  The north of Ireland is nearly 50-50 in terms of the divide these days so there is no future in being absolutist about stuff like this.  IMO you just have to be easy going about it, give everyone freedom of choice and avoid trying to impose your own choice on others or getting annoyed with others with different choices. 
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« Reply #318 on: July 22, 2012, 02:13:12 PM »

And the fact is that many Irish don't like the term "British Isles", so they use the term "The Isles".
....
Some of us Irish just never seem to accept our "Britishness", even if it's a FACT!  :)

As I said, people may call things what they want. People may not like things, but that doesn't change reality....

This is a quote from Stephen F on another forum. I haven't seen this documentary but here is a quote from it.
Quote from: Stephen F
To quote from Fergal Keane in the recent BBC/RTÉ documentary series "A History of Ireland", "we [the Irish] are no more Celtic than our English neighbours."

I don't totally agree with Fergal Keane, but..

for the British Isles to be the British Isles, is a very Celtic thing..... so what's the big deal? The British Empire is dead. The English have more Celtic in them than they know. The Romans pretty much documented the area, while winning the wars, and by that became authors of much of the place naming and history.

Thought Keane's series was very poor though.  It just skipped over 1000s of years in an episolde then dedicate the rest of the episodes to the last 400 years. 
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« Reply #319 on: July 22, 2012, 04:25:37 PM »

None of this is a big deal. It's semantics and preference. I, like many othe Irish, prefer the term "The Isles". Others prefer the term "The British Isles". I'm well aware of the origin of the name and the Pretanic people, but I still prefer The Isles because the modern conotation, although incorrect, is that British=English.
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« Reply #320 on: July 22, 2012, 05:45:53 PM »

 I prefer to use "The Isles" when including Ireland with England and Scotland.

I have a school book from around 1867 or so.
"Outlines of General History" where Canada is referred to as "British North America"
Over time people have managed to change that too.



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« Reply #321 on: July 22, 2012, 06:48:20 PM »

None of this is a big deal. It's semantics and preference. I, like many othe Irish, prefer the term "The Isles". Others prefer the term "The British Isles". I'm well aware of the origin of the name and the Pretanic people, but I still prefer The Isles because the modern conotation, although incorrect, is that British=English.

Regardless of all of the arguments for this name or another, I just wish Bodmer & Co had've included the Republic of Ireland in its project. Its omission leaves a huge gap in the data.
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Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
whoknows
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« Reply #322 on: July 22, 2012, 07:10:37 PM »

There are too many painful associations with the term 'British' and entirely understand any people in Ireland who feel an unease on the matter. It may well be that a rose can be named in many ways, but the scent of oppression, injustice and bloody occupation by 'British' forces remains far too potent to allow a relaxed and liberal tolerance that some may enjoy on the subject from the relative comforts of North America. The wounds have not healed to the extent that the term has lost entirely the ability to evoke Ireland's struggle to establish a free nation, nor the vicious occupation and cultural suppression that over a considerable period was enforced by order of the British state. Given the context, history and yes a visceral sense of memory and injustice felt by some it is hardly surprising to note the reaction at being too closely associated with the name of those who were so responsible for the nightmare visited upon Eire and its people. Perhaps those who are too ready to assert the opinion that certain Haplogroups in Ireland are derived from English colonists should contemplate such aspects as it may prove informative in understanding just one reason why such claims are not welcomed, apart from other inherent flaws or lack of evidence.
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rms2
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« Reply #323 on: July 22, 2012, 07:42:45 PM »

There are too many painful associations with the term 'British' and entirely understand any people in Ireland who feel an unease on the matter. It may well be that a rose can be named in many ways, but the scent of oppression, injustice and bloody occupation by 'British' forces remains far too potent to allow a relaxed and liberal tolerance that some may enjoy on the subject from the relative comforts of North America. The wounds have not healed to the extent that the term has lost entirely the ability to evoke Ireland's struggle to establish a free nation, nor the vicious occupation and cultural suppression that over a considerable period was enforced by order of the British state. Given the context, history and yes a visceral sense of memory and injustice felt by some it is hardly surprising to note the reaction at being too closely associated with the name of those who were so responsible for the nightmare visited upon Eire and its people. Perhaps those who are too ready to assert the opinion that certain Haplogroups in Ireland are derived from English colonists should contemplate such aspects as it may prove informative in understanding just one reason why such claims are not welcomed, apart from other inherent flaws or lack of evidence.

I think we understand the "not welcomed" part very well indeed. That is the crux of the matter.

But please remember my word of caution against turning this thread into another "U106-really-is-native-Irish-and-not-an-historical-period-import" thread.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 07:46:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #324 on: July 22, 2012, 08:07:09 PM »

I dont think there is any hobby I know of where even very intelligent people's objectivity in interpretation goes so much out of the window because of historical identity preferences, politics or just the good old wish to glorify ones own haplogroup or clade or heritage group.  You really need to know a person's background, heritage and politics to be on guard for what is effecting their interpretations.  Usually though its very transparent (and tiresome).  The lack of self awareness of those people is amazing though.  Luckily though there remain a good number of people in this hobby who are not badly affected by this problem. 
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