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Author Topic: Again about Colombo (why Columbus, Colom, Colon, Coulomb etc.?)  (Read 717 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: August 21, 2011, 04:49:16 AM »

A recent paper, unfortunately not for free, has been published on European Journal of Human Genetics: “Surname and Y chromosome in Southern Europe: a case study with Colom/Colombo”. A team of Iberian researchers (but there is also O. Rickards, who, in spite of her name, teaches at Rome University) try to demonstrate that Colombo wasn’t an Italian.
Of course we should read the paper and its supplemental data, but by what we understand from the abstract, it seems that for these researchers, as the surname Colombo is so diffused in Italy (it is the most diffused in Lombardy) and was also a surname for foundlings and with many genetic lines, and the Catalan Colom-s are a few and derived from a few lines…ergo: he wasn’t Colombo but Colom.

We still think that demonstrations should be made otherwise and not like a patchwork.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 09:35:17 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2011, 09:30:44 AM »

First of all some observations about the Supplemental data, very interesting and available.
1)   haplotypes C-035, C-060 and C-101 from Catalunya, classified of “unknown” haplogroup, will be some kind of J2b and a kind of J2 will be the unclassified LI-19 from Liguria.
2)   LI-35 is haplogroup L, not unknown in the zone between Liguria and Tuscany
3)   Choosing the haplotypes with DYS393=12, likely R1b1a2a, it is apparently astonishing that Catalunya has 8 samples, Liguria 3 , Lombardy 5 and France 1, but:
a)   7 out 8 of the Catalan ones belong to the same haplotype, then the probably R1b1a2a in Catalunya are only 2 and 7 belong to the same descent and the other, with DYS385=11,11, is probably of the cluster called, by Argiedude, Albanian, by me Balkan, and I thought having demonstrated that the most ancient of that haplotype is in Italy (see Risso, just from Liguria). This confirms that Iberia lacks the most ancient haplogroups of R1b1a2, for not saying that many Iberian DYS393=12 are back mutation from 13. What should have been a merit (a few haplotypes amongst the Colom from Catalunya) could be a lack, i.e. probably this haplotypes are of foreign origin.
b)   Then Italy, even though the Italians tested were 114 against the 238 Spaniards and French, demonstrates more and certain presence and variance: the Italian haplotypes are in fact 6.

4)   F-25 from France is classified by the authors of the same haplotype like LO-008, but the difference in DYS448 (20 against 19) and in DYS456 (15 against 16) are enough to make them different. DYS448 is a very slow mutating marker and a mutation of its it is enough to characterize a cluster.

All this of course has nothing to do with the origin of Cristoforo Colombo and his ethnicity.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 09:37:29 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2011, 02:45:26 AM »

and the other, with DYS385=11,11, is probably of the cluster called, by Argiedude, Albanian, by me Balkan, and I thought having demonstrated that the most ancient of that haplotype is in Italy (see Risso, just from Liguria)

Catalan cluster C-011:
13 13 29 24 11 14 12 11,11 12 13 15 19 15 16 24 13

From YHRD:
1 14 13 29 24 11 14 12 11,11 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 –1
1 of 314 Sicily, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe

14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,11 10 >>
14 13 30 24 11 14 12 11,11 1 >>
14 13 29 24 11 14 13 11,11 1 >>
13 13 29 24 11 14 12 11,11 0 >>

1 14 13 29 24 11 14 13 11,11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 –1
1 of 222 Latium, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 14 13 30 24 11 14 12 11,11 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 –1
1 of 314 Sicily, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe

2 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
2 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,11 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
2 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,11 12 13 15 19 15 15 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,11 12 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,11 12 13 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,11 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 11,11 12 13 15 19 15 15 23 13

2 of 250 Macedonia [Macedonian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 121 Albania [Tosk Albanian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 77 Georgia [Georgian] Eurasian - Caucasian Asia
1 of 645 Prague, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 43 Tver, Russian Federation [Russian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 39 Ankara, Turkey [Turkish] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 34 Mostar, Bosnia and Herzegowina [Bosnian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 134 Pyrenees, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 245 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [European] Eurasian - European Latin

Any doubt about the origin of this Catalan cluster from Italy? The question of the ultimate origin of this cluster remains open: I proposed an Italian origin of this “Balkan” cluster, finding in the Italian Risso the rest of its origin. Of course who thinks that R1b1a2a was born in West Asia will think the other way around.
It remains that Iberia didn’t get this haplogroup and received it from Italy.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 02:47:18 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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