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Author Topic: Anatole/Gioiello: who will be the winner?  (Read 448 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: August 31, 2011, 06:02:56 AM »

I think we both have expressed our positions and the victory between them we’ll be decided by the aDNA, like I and everyone of us think, beginning from the Y of Ötzi, an “Italian” of 5300YBP, that will be communicated on next 20-22 October.
To illustrate my positions, and as I have said many times that Iberia lacks ancient clades upstream R-P312* (and this is in contrast with your theory of a migration from Middle East to Spain via North Africa) and as Busby’s paper has found two R-M269(xS127) amongst Basque, I’ll use my method for these two haplotypes.

HGDP00511 BAS M269(xS127) 14,12-16,24,11,13,12,15,12,13
HGDP00515 BAS M269(xS127) 14,13-17,25,11,13,12,15,12,12

They belong probably to the same cluster, having single mutations of one around the «modal», the supposed modal of their ancestor.

DYS389I=0,002584
DYS389II=0,002584
DYS390=0,004405
DYS439=0,004181

0,013754:4=0,0034385

1:0,0034385=290,82248

(290,82248x4):20=58

58x32=1856YB the last generation

Then probably this Basque R-M269(xS127) isn’t an ancient Basque presence, but entered amongst them in the first centuries AD. If one says that it could continue a more ancient Basque haplotype, I’d say what I said to other peoples: show me more ancient haplotypes in the same area. It is little believable that only one has survived. Of course this doesn’t solve the problem of many different introgressions that other peoples may have had, but if like amongst some of them all the ancestors are less than 2000 years old, some suspicious may come.


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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 06:04:01 AM »

Take us now in consideration the 3 R-M269(xS127) reported by Busby’s from West Sicily:

CAS284-SIC-W, M269(xS127) 14,14-16,23,11,13,13,15,12,12
TP21-SIC-W,M269(xS127)        14,13-16,24,11,11,12,15,12,12
TP03-SIC-W,M269(xS127)         16,13-15,23,10,11,13,15,10,12

Excluded the third, clearly an I-M26, the others are true M269(xS127).

DYS389I=0,002584
DYS390=0,004405
DYS392(x2)=0,001488
DYS393=0,001119

0,011084:5=0,0022168
1:0,0022168=451
(451x5):20=112,75
112,75x32=3608YBP

Then these haplotypes are present in West Sicily from at least 3600 years. At least, because it is a little bit reliable that the very slow mutating DYS392 has had two mutations for the tangent (from 13 to 12 and from 12 to 11) and other markers faster mutating are on the “modal”. Then this is a case, probably, of many mutations around the modal, and the MRCA of these two haplotypes could be a lot older.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 07:33:52 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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Posts: 2153


« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 08:36:01 AM »

It seems that TP03-SIC-W is a “Balkan cluster”, those named “Albanian cluster” by Argiedude. Then: either a Sicilian of Arberesh descent or the witness of the most ancient cluster I linked to Italy. It needs to deepen.

2 14 13 29 24 11 11 12 11,11 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 11 12 11,11 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 11 12 11,11 12 12 15 19 15 15 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 11 12 11,11 12 12 15 19 16 15 23 12 >>

2 of 165 Albania [Gheg Albanian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 400 Sweden [Swedish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 191 Northern Greece, Greece [Greek] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 96 Wallachia, Romania [Romanian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe

1 14 13 29 24 11 11 12 11,11 12 11 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 182 Greece [Greek] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe

« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 10:55:25 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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